07-03-2001 10:11									#1
	Submission Pacts Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

How do you get them to submit? Why won't they submit? I've virtually destroyed all their units, their terrain improvement, and left their city devoid of garrison, open for the mindworms to attack. I've garrisoned their territory so that no one get's out alive, yet they still wont submit. How do I get them to submit?? I'm a merchant by nature and war is making my laissez-fairre citizens unhappy.

By the way I'm playing smacx and using the pirates, on the librarian level.

	07-03-2001 10:21									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Call them up on the commlink. If they request truce, decline. They will probably try to bribe you with cash with tech. Say no, until they say that they surrender.

BTW, a faction will never submit if they are an atrocity victim of yours.

LoD

	07-03-2001 02:24									#3
	Support Apolyton

I've often tried that approach (ie. calling the faction via comlink) in the hopes of getting the AI faction I'm decimating too see there is no hope and just offer to surrender. I won't have committed any atrocities against them (or most likely any other faction), but more often then not they'll just tell me they'll see me in hell (or some such). Even when I've got overwhelming odds, and have just sacked two or three of their bases that turn! Grrrr....

I wish there was a way to demand the surrender of an AI faction. It can be such a pain being forced into wiping them out, when if they'd just listen to reason and surrender when given the option...

	07-03-2001 03:12									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Often times the best means to getthem to submit is run their SE preference or at a minimum the default.

So for example your prosecuting a war against CEO Morgan.

His SE choice is to run FM.

Currently your running Green SE. Realsitically you know you can't run FM as you would have drone issues withyour untis spread round the world. Switch to Frontier economics and call him up.

So in summary:

Switch to default or Knowledge when calling Zak
Switch to default or FM when calling Morgan
Switch to default or power when calling Santi or Sven

etc. etc.

A good sign they are willing to submit is when they call you you refuse their overtures towards truce and they tell you to pound sand. The fact that they called you in the first palce means they are willing to come to the bargaining table. If you then switch to their SE choice they'll likely submit next time they call you.

	07-03-2001 05:14									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Once you are in communication you can tell if it's not worth going for submission that round - you will only get submission if they're showing "Obstinate", and never for "Seething". Note that oftentimes they still won't submit even when obstinate however.

	07-03-2001 07:02									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I always thought that there was some element of randomness ( or at least unpredictability at current levels of understanding)as to when they submit. I never commit atrocities against the AI and I do the "avoid their averssions technique" but sometimes they just won't submit. IIRC there were older threads that indicated that an AI, bribed to be in vendetta against you, would remain faithful to the party that bribed them. This could explain some of the stubborness of some factions.

Also wouldn't the game be less interesyting if you could predict exactly what you had to do to force submission? I like the fact that sometimes the AI faction will fight you to the death-- it makes it harder to assess the cost/benefits of initiating/pursuing a war and is also more "realistic".

	08-03-2001 04:47									#7
	Tired of ads?

You also have to consider their allies. If they have a pact with another faction that's strong, they won't surrender. They seem to counting on their pactmate to rescue them, even if they're on the other side of the planet (distinace is not taken into account). Try to get their allies to break pact with them, or weaken their allies by shifting your attack to them. This may drive them to surrender.



------------------
Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet, available at The Chironian Guild:
http://guild.ask-klan.net.pl/eng/index.html

	08-03-2001 13:31									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I have never contacted an enemy that I am on the verge of wiping out. They always contact me.

I always decline a "Truce" and they then beg for a pact. The screen above the message screen says "submissive".

I usually play at the "librarian"level or higher.

	08-03-2001 23:10									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Pretty interesting it happened my current game, that I'm now going to finish. Domai was the first one I've met, and I signed a treaty with him, and kept demanding techs. I was much more powerful, so he gave me whatever he said, but one turn he built a base in my territory, so the Vendetta was declared. I was alone on the continent, after wiping out Zakharov early in the game, and Domai's continent was just very close. I sent 5 Choppers to the closest of his bases, wiped out the defenders (Choppers equipied with the Wave), and took the base with a drop unit. After that, the communications screen came up, and Domai asked for Pact, that he kept for all the time. Pretty strange, taking in account that he had 5 big bases remaining, and his research was quite good. Later, with help of his needlejets, it was a lot easier for me to wipe Svensgaard and Marr.
Note that I like to make strange choices in climbing on the tech tree - sometimes I don't research the Applied Relativity, and go for other things, like a rush for Eudaimonia or Secrets of Manifold.

------------------
Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

	12-03-2001 06:58									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I had an amusing experience in my current game. I'm playing the University, and I ended up on the largest continent all by myself. So I went into builder mode and started to run away from the pack. Fairly soon after Deirdre built the Empath Guild every faction dialed me up to declare vendetta. No problem, I just ignored them and kept building, with no contact other than my Unity Chopper sinking a Gaian transport which was headed toward me. I was trying to get big and spread out to occupy as much of my continent as possible, and completely neglecting defense. Every base had a 1-1-1, or a 1-2-1 or a Unity Rover, most with green morale. I also had about 5 probe garrisons on my undeveloped frontier, and that 1-1-8 Unity Chopper patrolling. That's all that was defending about 18 size 16 bases with all of the infrastructure through Fusion Labs.

Suddenly Miriam pulls up in a Unity Foil and drops an Impact Infantry right next to one of my younger bases. I'm not happy, as she hates Zac (me) generally, and I'm running Demo / Planned / Knowledge. Plus this base has only it's green 1-2-1 defending it, and who knows what the other unit in the boat is? But she wants to talk first.

After insulting me, she demands a large sum of credits.

I turn her down,

and she offers to pledge blood truce.

No deal, I want to retain my ability to shoot her units on sight.

Then she abjectly surrenders!

She was half a map away, and I had no idea where she was, nor did I care since it wasn't near me. She sailed her little boat for probably 25+ years only to surrender when she got to me. Wierd. It has to rank as the easiest submissive pact ever, as there was not one action on my part that varied from what I would have done if she weren't even in the game.

	12-03-2001 10:31									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Had a similar experience with Cha Dawn surrendering without a shot being fired. It reminded me of the Peter Sellers movie "The Mouse That Roared": A small European country declares war on the U.S. They send an invasion force to an American city, hoping to surrender and then reap the rewards of U.S. largesse towards defeated nations. The plan backfires when they win.

	12-03-2001 11:07									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've had Miriam surrender in the same way. I was Gaian's on a huge map, mostly water very arid. Anyway after getting rid of energy restrictions and doing my pop-boom I built the empath guild and talk to Miriam - she demands a tech so I turn her down. She surrenders.

Why?

Well, she was completely isolated, on a tiny island, two land bases, one deep sea base. She had the choice of working fungus, flat/arid or water. Hahahah. Silly miriam hadn't researched cent ecology. Altough she did have the brilliant idea of surrending to me, because I gave her some tech and even did a base swap so I could terraform her island.

	12-03-2001 19:55									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

was all of these on trancend level? i've never had such experiences before.

	13-03-2001 02:10									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

My experience was on Transcend. Worth noting I had a dozen bases with tree farms and 14 pop and miriam had 3 size 2 bases, each with 1 or 2 garrisons. She also had no diplomatic contact as such (mo prospects of help). She prehaps had 4 techs.

I was so much stronger than Miriam that it must have gone over some threshold, if the human player is X times stronger than the AI, then the AI surrenders. With certain other requirments (Reputation being a biggy). I'd imagine if you keep your reputation clean the AI surrenders more easily.

I was ofcourse running Demo too.

	13-03-2001 08:55									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

My game was Transcend as well. I haven't played anything but that for quite a while, though I did play a lot at Thinker after my first few at Librarian. It has been said many times, but bears repeating: Transcend is not all that hard. The same things you do to beat the AI on Librarian will beat the AI on Transcend. The only thing that is really any different is that you have to watch for those drones early. An efficient early game technique makes even this caveat no sweat.

Blake,

I think there is something to that threshold, as I was running Demo and Knowledge which should really piss Miriam off.

	14-03-2001 10:45									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I've noticed that if an AI is generally in trouble (i.e being attacked by other AIs), then if you run into them for the first time, they are quite likely to submit if you turn down other treaties. I guess that this is because their "I am weak" reason to submit is not countered by their "I hate you for killing lots of my troops" reason not to submit. Maybe.