13-02-2003 11:23									#1
	WAR Between Lux and ND!!! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Dejon has posted the screenshots given to us by Trip.

5 ND swordsmen have moved next to Lux's southern city. Trip was very candid with us in chat this evening, revealing that they have 3 cities and 1 settler, one of those cities will be sacked next turn as they cannot defend it.

They are preparing a counter offensive to protect their capital city, which is aprox 8 tiles from the warzone. They are also preparing to link iron and mass upgrade warriors they are currently producing.

Trip is begging us to get involved. I have agreed that we will get involved diplomaticly threatening ND that if they start this war, it may lead to us and GoW fighting them.

GoW is a wildcard. Ghengis has stated that he would get involved to help Lux, but we have also heard that they want a bidding war and if their price is not met, too bad.

We MAY become involved militarily by using Mad. Exp. and GuOps to perform some minor terrorist roles, but only if GoW also becomes involved. If not, too bad. I'm not throwing away Spanish boys.

TOMORROW I want all team members in chat to discuss these events and what Spain should do. I want you also to discuss with any GoW people you know to get a feel for what they will do. Hopefully, a summit will occur at 6pm EST between us, GoW, and Lux to see if a temporary alliance will occur.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 13-02-2003 at 11:45

	13-02-2003 11:59									#2
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Thoughts:
-I wonder if we prompted this is any way by telling ND we didn't want them settling to the south.
-I'm glad those swordsmen are heading north(east) rather than towards Saragossa and/or the silk city site
-I wonder if ND would consider waiting 1 turn to let our alliance with Lux lapse
-We cannot prevent the war, and our few spare warriors won't likely make any difference in the outcome
-Our diplomats need to find out ND's goals in the war - are they just after that city (which
was an insult, so close to theirs) or are they aiming for the destruction of Lux?

	13-02-2003 12:16									#3
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Chatting with Trip after Togas and E_T left...

First, what Trip sent to Borc

* Trip sends a forceful PM to Borc
Trip: The approaching of your army towards our city and refusal to move your units from our land is unacceptable. We demand you stand down now, or you will be subject to war with the alliance of the Glory of War and Roleplay teams in addition to Lux Invicta. If you are willing to risk a war against the rest of this continent, then so be it. This is your final warning.
Trip: muahahahahaaaaaaa

I asked him whether he thought he was overplaying his hand, especially with regard to Glory of War, and he said "nah". He's a fool... he STILL doesn't seem able to see that he's been beat and it's time to ask for terms...

Perhaps we have to ask ND what their terms are for him, since he seems incapable.

He shared that he had "excellent" relations with GoW and that GhengisFarb had never said anything bad to him other than that incident recently that has since been cleared up. Which, to me, is an indication that GhengisFarb fully realizes that Trip is a fool and thinks (correctly) that he's "playing" Trip. This might explain why GhengisFarb, since his strategy was working so WELL on Trip, was frustrated that it WASN'T working on Togas (just a theory...)

As E_T said in the civ3rp channel when I copied and pasted the above...

E_T_Smoking: Hes a megomaniac
* E_T_Smoking is now known as E_T
E_T: It's going make our relations with ND very hard
E_T: I don't loke it at all
E_T: *like
Arnelos: neither do I...
Arnelos: that's where we explain to ND that Trip is.... overplaying his hand
Arnelos: we can fully accept Lux's loss of that one city
Arnelos: but nothing further
E_T: hmmm, I don't see were we can really prevent it from going any further than that, especially with Trip being in charge of his team
Arnelos: that IS the problem...

Second, that Trip and BFM basically ARE the entire Lux Invicta team

Trip: if Ninot beats me againn (and he probably will), I think it may be time for this ol' guy to retire
Arnelos: bah - if Lux Invicta survives, you'll still be team leader, likely
Trip: haha
Trip: of course... I'm the only one that does anything
Arnelos: or is this incident going to cause your downfall inside Lux? ;p
Trip: if I died then Lux would probably collapse ;P
Trip: nah
Trip: sad as it may seem my team has kinda died
Arnelos: we figured that...
Trip: I guess all that holiday candy really got to them o_o
Arnelos: between the postcount and that we rarely saw anyone other than you and BFM
Trip: BFM and I run the show
Trip: the first great purge is about to go through for inactive members
Trip: I estimate 1/2 membership will be cut
Arnelos: and Apoc's admission that he hadn't visited your forum in some insane number of days
Trip: 45 or so :P

and...

Chat is now tentatively scheduled for 6 p.m. EST tomorrow (to be rescheduled based upon GhengisFarb's schedule).

I would assume that since our great despot Togas will be present and representing the team to both the other teams (and both Trip and GhengisFarb will be present), it would be best for our team to remain SILENT other than Togas himself. We can discuss matters in civ3rp and make suggestions to Togas there (which means Togas has to watch civ3rp like a hawk...).

Does that work?

Last edited by Arnelos on 13-02-2003 at 12:24

	13-02-2003 12:16									#4
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quote: Originally posted by dejon -We cannot prevent the war, and our few spare warriors won't likely make any difference in the outcome -Our diplomats need to find out ND's goals in the war - are they just after that city

Agreed on both parts.

History Guy and any other Spanish citizen who has any contacts with ND, or happens to see them in chat -- we must find out what ND wants. What are their goals. Is it one city or all of Lux?

Frankly, Lux deserves to lose that city. However, removing Lux from the north right now seriously unbalances the power in the north and puts Cow Valley at risk from a Neu Dem offensive against us once Lux is out of the way.

--Togas

	13-02-2003 12:28									#5
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We should talk to GoW and coordinate to go to ND and tell them that ND taking Lux's border city is perfectly acceptable to both GoW and RP... and then negotiate with ND about any other terms.

If GoW and RP can negotiate together acceptable terms with ND, that will work. As for Lux, they're just going to have to live with whatever is left to them.

Our interest is not Lux's wellbeing, it's ND's containment. GoW likely has the exact same interest.

I dearly hope that GoW sees this situation with enough clarity to recognize that... GoW and RP Team have a VERY powerful common interest here.

	13-02-2003 12:55									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Togas, please note that our two posts cross-posted. I figure you may not have noticed what I posted about Trip's continued talking before you went offline.

Just want to make sure you see it

	13-02-2003 13:06									#7
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I haven't seen this possibility examined that much, but I feel it is at least worth mentioning.

What if ND and GoW have actually been working together for awhile? Both teams have expressed irritation/bordering on anger at Lux for things Lux is supposed to have done. ND is upset over the placement of Lux's city and Lux's attempt to hunt down an ND settler. GoW had Lux in a position to capture its capitol and then recently the supposed breaking of their trade treaty.

If ND/GoW are cordinating this impending war with Lux, and actually have good terms, this could possibly be turned to a war on Roleplay.

And I don't think that would fare well for us.

	13-02-2003 17:02									#8
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Great Ruler Togas :

We need a stronger army, and connect to our iron ASAP...

Barracks ! Walls !

Astronicus

	13-02-2003 20:03									#9
	Re: WAR Between Lux and ND!!! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

First, I agree with Señor Astrologix about the dire need to maintain parity with ND militarily. It seems I missed the meaning of the non-aggression pact as being a run at cow valley when it was probably part of their preparations for war. Unfortunately, it binds our hands to anything but diplomatic measures (unless we are prepared for the consequences and I don't think we presently).

It is imperative that we understand ND's intentions and their goals. However, we also need to have a candid dialogue with Trip about just how capable they are of mounting a successful counterattack. He seems to be very forthcoming about the situation though; I don't think it would be a problem to find out concrete numbers on how long it will take for them to hook up iron, upgrade units, and organize and execute any counter-offensive. Sadly, info like that will be necessary to decide whether or not we are going to have to leave them to their fate.

Second, this turn of events makes a Publics Works planning session all the more vital for us (hopefully by no later than this weekend) and the need for a competent SMC to step forward soon. Infrastructure, REX issues, resource acquisition, and defense strategy can no longer wait.

	13-02-2003 20:47									#10
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By God and the glory of Spain... Now I think it's the right time to switch form REX-mode to KILL-mode.
(doing the stuff already mentioned by astrologix)


A typical 'backstab the weakest' situation can arise here:
(a good old routine which has survived all way from civ1)


- The 'wildcard' GoW might be hungry for spoils of war.
If ND does conquer Trip alone, they get all the land and gets to be most poweful. GoW might want some of this land, and launch an attack on Trip too. (or they might be cooperating already.)

It is logical that GoW might try to compete with ND in aggressiveness... Especially in case GoW too got a serious attack force. ( which we should try to find out more about, questioning Trip ASAP. )

AND: We can not interfere yet... Just observe and prepare!

	13-02-2003 21:32									#11
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I see two possible situations depending of the actual military strength of ND :
- if they have only this stack of five swordsmen, they will take and destroyed the city, making room for their own neighbouring city, then take Lux treasury in the peace treaty; this could be helped by GoW showing a small stack in the vicinity of their capital in order to deter them from sending their army far away.
- if they have more military units (which I doubt : five swordsmen in 1725 is not ridiculous), they could reach Lux capital within five or six turns and wipe them out.

The first case would not modify dramatically the balance of power. The second would, but we cant help.

Therefore, we have to convince ND that the survival of Lux is no longer a problem provided that GoW does not seize the opportunity offered by the weakening of Lux to try something, and we have to convince GoW that he commits himself not to attack Lux if ND stops the war after taking the Lux city.

But our diplomats have to anticipate some difficulties in talking to ND after our settling on the silk.

	13-02-2003 21:33									#12
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after we have taken the silk and consolidated our border we should get iron with the next settler, we must have a counteroffence! our military might is ANEMIC!
btw, do we have a barrax in any of our ciduads?

a strong military will hopefully function as a deterrent.
remember, ND might consider us taking the silk as a treacherous deed (insane as they are ) and that army of 5 swordsmen (with more possibly coming and being built) could wipe us out of cow valley.

we must strengthen our defences!

	13-02-2003 22:05									#13
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Way I see it, theres two ways to go about this:
1) We sign an alliance with ND and GoW, and continue REXing.
2) We build up our military, intervene on behalf of Lux.

I'm not truly convinced of which is better. I beleive that if ND allows Lux to continue in peace after taking that city, number 1 is certainly what we should do.

	13-02-2003 22:06									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Regarding Trip's ability to defend himself (notice I'm referring to their entire team as Trip, given that that is the truth...):

Trip reported that he could have 3 swordsmen up and ready to commit 8 turns from now.

Unfortunately, he reported that even if he delays ND, he expects they will take only 7-8 turns to reach Invictus, the Lux capital.

He implored that ND has caught him with his pants down and there's very little he can do other than slow down and cause attritrion casualties to ND, hoping that GoW and RP Team can cause enough distraction or nuisance on other borders to induce ND to end the conflict.

Trip reported that GhengisFarb had told him GoW could send 2 veteran horsemen into the conflict within 4 turns, but that's the soonest they could have anything available.

So basically, Trip is royally f*cked.

Why on earth he doesn't seem to fully recognize that it's well past time for him to ask ND for their terms is beyond me... he's a complete fool for making THREATS at ND rather than capitulating right now

	13-02-2003 22:14									#15
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quote: Originally posted by LzPrst after we have taken the silk and consolidated our border we should get iron with the next settler, we must have a counteroffence! our military might is ANEMIC! btw, do we have a barrax in any of our ciduads? a strong military will hopefully function as a deterrent. remember, ND might consider us taking the silk as a treacherous deed (insane as they are ) and that army of 5 swordsmen (with more possibly coming and being built) could wipe us out of cow valley. we must strengthen our defences!

Funny you should ask about the barracks... that's the next item in Madrid's queue. The barracks production will also be speeded by the worker south of Madrid chopping down a forest and the extra 10 shields going toward our barracks.

If this situation gets worse, I can change the queue in Madrid for after the barracks from settler to archers (and lots of them). Veteran Archer stacks are all that we can do until Madrid is connected to horses or roads.

Speaking of horses and roads, we should be honest about that is why we founded Saragossa. It is our only source of horses. Tell ND that it would be COMPLETELY unreasonable for them to expect us not to claim our only available source of horses and that, in addition, we made it perfectly clear we were headed for that valley from the very beginning of our contact with ND. If ND had a problem with it, they should have brought it up sooner.

It's also true that ND will have PLENTY of land north of the jungle. Especially with the defeat of Lux, there is nothing to stop them from having even more land than we have below the jungle.

	13-02-2003 22:59									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Why on earth he doesn't seem to fully recognize that it's well past time for him to ask ND for their terms is beyond me... he's a complete fool for making THREATS at ND rather than capitulating right now

does it REALLY suprise you that Trip beat his chest and tried to scare ND away when he had a pair of 3's, and ND had a full house?

We need Lux alive tho, to serve as long term distraction. even if vasalised, thats better than gone.

I suggest we work with GoW to threaten ND to step down, perhaps after 1 or 2 cities.

We can't mount an immediate attack, but suggest there will be long term reprocussions

	13-02-2003 23:01									#17
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honestly, if I were Trip, I think I might have done the same thing

from a strategic point of view.....

if he gave ND pleas for peace, they would gain the immediate impression that he is defenseless.

if ND believed he could kick them down, his plan would have worked.

i think the second one had a better chance of giving him life. Too bad it didnt.

	13-02-2003 23:17									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos If this situation gets worse, I can change the queue in Madrid for after the barracks from settler to archers (and lots of them). Veteran Archer stacks are all that we can do until Madrid is connected to horses or roads.

Indeed governor... It's will be a continuous weighing of the situation for Madrids production. You might be able to build the settler so we can expand, if we are left in peace that is...
Building the barracks there first, and so prepare us for the worst, and is IMO the right thing to do in this situation.

	13-02-2003 23:28									#19
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This pretty much proves that GoW has a deal to split Lux lands with ND.

quote: [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Let's coninue [Donegeal> so you want to try to stop war? [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> if ND attacks Lux and do nothing, ND will become a superpower [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> that is the least we both want [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> RP and GoW [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> You understand that? [Donegeal> or... ND can attack Lux and draw their forces to the other side of the continete and we kill them together [NuclearisWinterius> But we would like to know the position of your team before we enter the war [Donegeal> in any case... GoW is all about the money.... [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Of course, Trip has to pay for it [NuclearisWinterius> For now, who has paid you mercenaries the best offer [NuclearisWinterius> ? [Donegeal> I don't know... seems you want to look out for Trips interests... [Donegeal> Sorry Nuc... we can't give out that kind of info [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Donegeal, You know that Trip can never win from ND [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> So ND will win [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> The'll becoem too strong [Donegeal> looks that way... but Trip and GoW could... [NuclearisWinterius> We don´t trust ND enough to allow them to win the war [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> That is what I meant to say [Donegeal> SO are you saying that you are going to intervene on Lux behalf? [NuclearisWinterius> PRobably, but we are not sure yet [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> If GoW is going to war AGAINST ND yes [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Very probably [Donegeal> hmmm... I like the sound of that... [NuclearisWinterius> In fact we would like to intervene diplomatically [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> First diplomatically [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Then war [Donegeal> I was always against ND joining this game as they are not 'poly... [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> if it doesnt work [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Donegeal, RP wants you to do something for us [Donegeal> I have been trying to get my team to take any offer Trip gives us.... * Disconnected Session Close: Thu Feb 13 13:43:07 2003 Session Start: Thu Feb 13 13:43:53 2003 Session Ident: #donegeal * Now talking in #donegeal [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> back [Donegeal> Actually... I don't have alot of time right now... [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> sorry got disconnected [NuclearisWinterius> But does your team sees the point in not letting ND get way too strong in the north? [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> we can keep it real short [Donegeal> I am almost done with work then I have to drive about 35 min back home... I can be back by about 7:40 CST [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Very well [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> We'll be waiting for you [Donegeal> see you then? [NuclearisWinterius> See ya Mr Doengeal! [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> cya [Donegeal> same bat channel? [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> same channel [Donegeal> later... * Donegeal has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) cya * NuclearisWinterius has left #donegeal * Disconnected Session Close: Thu Feb 13 13:58:03 2003 Session Start: Thu Feb 13 14:16:27 2003 Session Ident: #donegeal * Now talking in #donegeal * Panzer32 has joined #donegeal [Panzer32> yes? [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Hi [Panzer32> hi [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Donegeal and I have been discussing the war between ND and Lux [Panzer32> which team are you? [Panzer32> Roleplay, right? [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Yes right [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> You know about the war [Panzer32> yes [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> ND shall attack Lux NEXT turn [Panzer32> you have a nonagression pact with ND [Panzer32> I know that [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> yes we have [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> There is but a problem [Panzer32> ? [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> RP doesn't want ND to get into war with Lux, I'll present you the reason * NuclearisWinterius has joined #Donegeal [NuclearisWinterius> Hi mrs [Panzer32> hello [NuclearisWinterius> Hello mr Panzer [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> If ND conquers Lux now, they'll become a superpower and a threat to both of us [NuclearisWinterius> how are you doing? [Panzer32> good [NuclearisWinterius> MR panzer, we from the Kingdom of Spain Would like to know what is your team´s official policy for a war between Nd and lux, [NuclearisWinterius> so that we can define a policy for our team. * Donegeal has joined #donegeal [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Hi donegeal [NuclearisWinterius> Will you aid lux or ND, or will gow be neutral? [Donegeal> Hello... told you I would be back... [NuclearisWinterius> hello mr donegeal [Panzer32> I am not at liberty to say. [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Panzer, this is uregent [Panzer32> just guess and hope you're right. [Panzer32> its all I can prescribe... [NuclearisWinterius> We need to know this as to be in a position to aid GoW and improve our diplomatic relationship [NuclearisWinterius> Sun Tze said ´´You don´t lie or deny information for an ally´´ [Donegeal> Did you give us writting yet? I'm sure that would improve relations.. [NuclearisWinterius> I´m sorry to say I don´t know... [Panzer32> I think they did. [NuclearisWinterius> I´m not from the tech department [NuclearisWinterius> though we are doing all in our hands to improove our relationships. [Panzer32> they should have, since our warriors are north of Saragossa [NuclearisWinterius> We trust your warriors [Donegeal> Look... were mercs... we benifit from war. Who ever gives us the best offer will get our help.. [Donegeal> maybe you and Lux could put together an offer... [NuclearisWinterius> I guess mercenaries also have allies... [Panzer32> GoW and Roleplay are at peace, we do not have an alliance. [NuclearisWinterius> Well, ain´t peace a sort of Alliance of friendship? [Panzer32> sure... but we have no guarantees about what you will do with any information we give you. [NuclearisWinterius> We have no interest In ´´saving´´ Lux, we were just trying to see a common view of the situation so that we can find a position that fits both of our teams in the best manner [Donegeal> you are worried about balance...hire us. [Panzer32> are you prepared to strike within 5 turns? [NuclearisWinterius> Mr panzer, we could never do somethingthat would in any manner hurt Glory of War. Spain is a peace loving nation [Donegeal> what is the latest save year? [NuclearisWinterius> We are not sure if we will strike, but our regiments are ready to move [NuclearisWinterius> I don´t quite remember [Panzer32> Then just move towards Lux-ND boarder, and then make up your minds [Panzer32> 1725 I believe [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Then it'll be too late [NuclearisWinterius> We are not sure if we will act, [Panzer32> too late because the war will be over, or for some other reason? [NuclearisWinterius> Because we are not yet sure if we want to intervene [NuclearisWinterius> If glory of war gave us a position we would surely be on your side of the interests [Panzer32> I can tell you, that Lux by themselves is in a very bad position. [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> too late because the war shall have started alreay [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> *already [NuclearisWinterius> We are not sure if we WANT to aid lux Invicta´s team [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> And do not want to save them [Panzer32> so you just want to be on the winning side, without really helping. [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> No [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> You are distrusting us [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> it seems [Panzer32> I am just commenting on what I see. [NuclearisWinterius> We don´t really have any bonds with Lux Invicta [NuclearisWinterius> or Neu Demo [Panzer32> you have a NAP with ND! [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> We want to prevent ND of getting too mighty [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> that is also in your interest [NuclearisWinterius> We have a pact that states we won´t attack ´em for teritory purposes [Panzer32> I just don't see why Roleplay doesn't stay out of the war, and build up during it. If I were RP, thats what I would do. [NuclearisWinterius> The team that we have more bonds with right now is Glory of War, so we would like to know the position China will take so we can consider what will we do, but as GoW seems not to trust us enough to share a information with us... [Donegeal> So what do you want us to do? Tell you who's side we are on? [NuclearisWinterius> Indeed. We are bound to aid, or at the worst of possibilities stay out of it [Donegeal> Easy... the higest bidder. [NuclearisWinterius> We will not backstab GoW. And that is for sure [Donegeal> We, unfortunately are not permitted to say who the higest bidder is. We said so when we first became mercs.. [NuclearisWinterius> That is ok. [Panzer32> now, if we told you what side we are on (if we are on a side yet), you will post it in your forum, right? [NuclearisWinterius> no, [NuclearisWinterius> we would only tell Lord Togas [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> We are Togas' diplomats [NuclearisWinterius> Ah, by the way, we are happy to say that Mr Betahound from Vox controlli has just sent us the contacts of Gathering Storm, as pper the agreemnet with glory of war [Panzer32> would Togas tell anyone? [NuclearisWinterius> Probably not. He would just take his decision and and tell the team what shall we do, as in, call back our boys, or go get ´em. [NuclearisWinterius> The ways of despotism [Panzer32> probably... [NuclearisWinterius> Surely not. If told anyone, it would be senor dejon, his most trusted advisor [Panzer32> the problem with this is that we cannot let it leak to ANYONE. [NuclearisWinterius> Well then [Panzer32> It would surely get back to ND/Lux [NuclearisWinterius> We would not tell ém [NuclearisWinterius> it is our most high principle [NuclearisWinterius> But if you just cannot, It is ok. [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> Please trust us Panzer [NuclearisWinterius> No aidun, that is ok [NuclearisWinterius> It is on their contract [NuclearisWinterius> Actually, it is good to see that they follow every line of the contract [Panzer32> we cannot betray anyone [Panzer32> your team will find out soon enough, anyway. [NuclearisWinterius> So I think this talk is over, right? [NuclearisWinterius> Please convey our thanks to mr Farb * Donegeal has left #donegeal [NuclearisWinterius> for teh deal with Gathering storm and tell him everything went ok [Panzer32> ok. [NuclearisWinterius> See ya later Senõr panzer * NuclearisWinterius has left #Donegeal [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> I'll leave too Panzer [Panzer32> ok - I'm just recording some of the things that were said [Panzer32> bye [Aidun_any_GoW-people_here> bye

	13-02-2003 23:36									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

This information is useful, however, I need to institute a new policy regarding conversations with other teams.

Please read the Official Edicts thread.

--Togas

	13-02-2003 23:43									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Togas This information is useful, however, I need to institute a new policy regarding conversations with other teams.

Thank god

	14-02-2003 00:30									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

(OOC)

Assuming that we need a stronger army ASAP, I suggest the following steps to do that :

1. Barcelona first builds a worker instead of a spearman
2. The current workers near Madrid and Barcelona finish chopping the forrest and the roads between those two cities and after that, do the same between Madrid and Pamplona. They don't irrigate the plain tiles near Barcelona.
3. The worker near Saragossa build roads to connect Pamplona, Saragossa and Santiago and next build a road to the iron. Finally he found a colony on the iron in order to allow Madrid to build swordmen (this could be done in around 16 turns away).
4. The two warriors on the north patrol near the ND borders. The two others go to Madrid in order to be upgraded to swordmen.
5. After building barrakcs, Madrid builds archers (as suggested by Arnelos) and then swordmen (when the iron become available)
6. Pamplona could continue build a worker (to help building the road to Madrid) and then settlers.
7. Santiago build wall.
8. Barcelona continue to growth with the help of its second worker (who irrigate the plain tiles) and builds a spearman or something else.

Of course, this is only a rough plan. It must be improved. But it's a first thought...

	14-02-2003 00:43									#23
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I won’t be able to make the chat, so I would appreciate someone recording it and posting it.

I really don’t see what else we can do but sigh and weep into our handkerchiefs at poor Lux’s tragic situation as we don’t have the manpower to go on an offensive. It’s so depressing we don’t have the heart to even get out of bed in the mornings.

In other words, we should send no help but we should build up our own military and hurry to that iron.

	14-02-2003 01:27									#24
	Put an end to popups!

Results of a discussion with Neu Dem

I met in private chat with Borc, Darekill, Arne, and several other ND members (who remained silent) to discuss the ensuing war with Lux Invicta, and our problems. The following was explained to them:

-- We have a Defensive alliance that ends in 1 turn. If they attack Lux, we have to help Lux. This alliance supercedes our Non-Agg.
-- We, ultimately, understand why they want to destroy that Lux city. We urge them to limit the war to only that city.
-- We will not re-sign our agreement with Lux if ND is willing to wait until it ends before attacking.
-- We will not make demands or threats or such to them. Our interest is peace and cooperation. We have a good friendship with them now and want to continue that relationship.

After some discussion they explained that their interest is just that city. They do not want "a thousand year war" with Lux. They stated that they respect nations that are honest and trustworthy, and Lux is not honest or trustworthy, and as a result of all of the meddling and probing by Lux troops, they decided to act decisively.

They did not promise they would only take that city, but they seemed to imply this.

They will seriously consider our request to wait ONE TURN and then attack. They will poll it today.

On the settlement issue:

They stated that they just want 1 city on the silks. They want at least 1 city south of their capital. They claim to only have room for 8 cities while we have room for 12. I explained to them the following:

1) We are not making cities to the north, east, OR south of our capital, due to the jungle, desert, and ocean that surrounds Madrid. In the future it is likely that we will move our capital as Madrid is in a horrible spot. Spain, as a nation, exists to the west of Madrid.
2) We are settling west. We ask that they settle east. The area we have shown them has room for FIVE excellent city sites.
3) We want to consolidate our nation into an easily defendible area with natural borders. The jungle is an excellent border.
4) If it's the silk they want, we're willing to make a deal for the silk.
5) Giving up that city would be like Spain giving up Gibraltar to England. Perhaps this wasn't the best example, but it may clarify that we feel that we would be giving up a peace of a continuous land mass.
6) I asked "If you took over all of Lux's land, how many city sites would that give you?" They replied, "Enough, but we don't want to be caught in a thousand year war."
7) When they claimed how crowded it was up there and I replied, "I don't know, I haven't see the map up there" they said they might send us a map and that it would "shock us."

BOTTOM LINE: We will talk again in the future about settlement. The issue is undecided, but we are making our point and they are backing down somewhat. They have not promised that they will not go to war with Lux, but there is a good chance that they will take our concerns to heart and delay 1 turn so that we are not BOUND to defend Lux.

However, we may ultimately choose to help Lux. That remains undetermined. Do not reveal any of these negotiations or issues to anyone else at this time.

--Togas

	14-02-2003 02:25									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

That's what we hoped for, they only want the silks... The vague 'west coast request' on their picture was only a bluff. The fact that they're now virtually at war with Lux is helping us : they posted that 'ND-RP love story' thing in the public forum, so they can't be quickly hostile to us even if we build a city on the silks. They'll still consider it as an insult though, and I think that only giving them some silks may calm them down. But they already have 5 swordsmen and we've even not linked up iron or horses, so building up an army should be our first priority now.

	14-02-2003 03:12									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yeah, we might have to give them some silks if that stack-o-swordsmen suddenly pops up outside one of our poor defended cities one day.
We need to make sure that won't happen. So that we can get paid for the silks. Hopefully our 'Pueblo Armado' will be up and going in time for that. We need to keep in balance with ND, so they cannot threaten us. We also need allies we can trust...

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 14-02-2003 at 22:13

	14-02-2003 06:49									#27
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screw them - they have proven to be untrustworthy and warmongers. We build our cities where we want.

	14-02-2003 15:01									#28
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I'm not telling that we should give them the city spot, I'm telling that we could have to trade them a silk ressource for free to calm them down. Face it, this spot is 2 times closer to their capital than ours. We'll rightfully claim it as we'll win the settling race, but hoping that they'll just accept this without any counterpart is really naïve. If we had a military big enough to stand against ND we could keep everything for us, but right now they have 5 swords and none of our units has more than 1 attack point. So let's keep a rather low profile if needed, until we have a bigger military.

	14-02-2003 22:21									#29
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You got a point there Crousto. We should step carefully... I don't think they will demand anything from us yet. They have to get done with Trip first anyway.

I was a bit optimistic about that future settlement by the lake North of Madrid as well. That one would require a diplomatic miracle.
Now, as we will close them off the South (promising lands) we can have the good many-cities-advantage down under.

	14-02-2003 23:59									#30
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The following PM was sent to Lux Invicta (Trip) and GoW (Ghengis). It was sent to GoW to keep down their suspicions and to continue our current diplomatic gambit of acting "in unison" with them.

quote: I have requested that Neu Dem agree to mediate the war between Neu Dem & Lux Invicta which began officially after Lux killed a Neu Dem scout. I have agreed to personally mediate between the teams (I have taken a course in Mediation as well as Dispute Resolution in law school), however, I am perfectly agreeable to having another person serve as mediator. I have urged Neu Dem to agree -- this would not be binding, if the two sides cannot agree to a settlement, the war would continue. If they do agree, I will contact both parties to set up time and place for the mediation. I want to stress to Lux Invicta that Roleplay is in no position to intervene militarily to stop or delay this war. Lux Invicta needs to be honest with themselves. If you cannot keep Neu Dem from conquering your people, you must decide on what you would be willing to do to live to fight another day. If we do mediate this, I'm not going to tolerate a threat-fest and a bunch of posturing. You must have a plan and a proposal that Neu Dem could not reasonably ignore.

Our current agenda

1) Keep from breaking any treaties. Lux has started this war by killing a ND scout, so we are free to act in any mannor we choose.

2) Either keep Lux alive to put future pressure on ND, or to draw out this war as long as possible so we have time to further settle and catch-up militarily.

3) To become close friends with everyone involved/make no enemies. If it turns out that there are only 3 nations on this continent the next war MUST be between GoW & ND. We will die if we allow them to become closer friends than we are with both of them.

4) To stay close to GoW (faux-partnership) to keep a close eye on what they're up to and to try to sway them to not take advantage of Lux.

added: I should point out, if Lux goes down even though we have done everything to save them, I am willing to go along with Ghengis's "give the spoils to your friends" plan whereby Lux gives GoW & Rp their money, workers, and a city that GoW is lusting over.

5) Lastly, we have analyzed the military #s Lux has given us and come to the conclusion that Lux cannot be saved. It is simply not possible with our current military. As it is not possible, I will not pointlessly throw away our troops or anger ND in a lost cause. We should continue to give Trip moral support and try to help cause peace, but we must back away from any further suggestions that our armies will march on ND. At this point, it's just not a sane option.

--Togas