15-05-2003 19:42									#181
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well we could just keep it teh way it is if no one objects....really, most people have pike or phalanxes already, you need toremember after all those beers to switch to warriors when you go for the leos upgrade so alot is riding on this one ...haha

	15-05-2003 19:44									#182
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Phalanxes don't matter since warriors don't become obsolete till pikeman.

	15-05-2003 19:48									#183
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no, but when building a phalanx it upgrades to musket right away....the warrior is the only one that doens't IIRC

	15-05-2003 19:49									#184
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Yes, but I assumed you wouldn't have a phalanx in the build queue at that time.

	15-05-2003 19:53									#185
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well despite peoples beliefs that i only use warriors, we both know that is not the case, later in the game i get those phalanxes in place just in case...but i do tend to have alot of warriors and attacking units more so that phalanxes

	15-05-2003 20:32									#186
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CW, please add, artic start = restart.
Unless someone objects.

	15-05-2003 20:38									#187
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hopefully he can find it amongst all the clutter

note, arctic start means no chance of hitting the mainland ...not just starting around tundra......

either top fo the mapboard or the bottom with no adjoining continent

	15-05-2003 21:03									#188
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What if the mainland can be reached 10 or 20 squares away?

	15-05-2003 22:59									#189
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well its got to be reasonable don't you think....i mean 20 turns is a long time in a civ game? your pretty much out of the top running unless you find gold, and a high production river with a whale to crank and end up with a nomad...]

so i would say if you can't reach the mainland in a 5 turns..then ...restart....

like i said, top or bottom of the mapboard...along the edges..... if it connects to a landmass ASAP then we can discuss via KC

	16-05-2003 00:34									#190
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I would have to agree that it should be reasonable.

If it takes you 20 turns to get off the edge of the board, I don't really care that it's not a "true arctic" start... it still sucks

	16-05-2003 00:39									#191
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Agreed. Any other people with opinions?

	16-05-2003 01:19									#192
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probably not the aussies, they make you play

	16-05-2003 03:23									#194
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i think the standard rule should be, if you can't get to the main land by 5 turns its a restart......

	16-05-2003 03:51									#195
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever no, but when building a phalanx it upgrades to musket right away....the warrior is the only one that doens't IIRC

Yes it does, else there wouldnt be the mass warior upgrade swarm strat

	16-05-2003 03:55									#196
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever probably not the aussies, they make you play

we are not weak like you lot and don't forget I did not come last even with a south pole start.

	16-05-2003 03:57									#197
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So whats the verdict?

I used this a lot a while ago, celebrate all your city's and build a massive amount of settlers, then after building statue and going fundi build 20+ city's at once and have all produce warriors.

Then research gunpowder, certainly in 2x2x you can have 25+ city's producing a musk each turn.

Imo you should be able to do this one time but change your production after you discover gunpowder, on large land/conts map this thing is just too powerfull.

	16-05-2003 04:33									#198
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As I said earlier (in the Rah rules thread ) a one-off upgrade is fine IMO.............that's what you build leo's for. But clearly to carry on producing warriors afterwards is abusive, and only happens because the programmers forgot to make the warrior production automatically change like the phalanx would.

	16-05-2003 05:18									#199
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actually i wrote that wrong..being a warror fella myself, what i meant was i didnt' think the phalanx could be build anymore only the warrior once you had gunpowder..

does this make sense now

	16-05-2003 10:26									#200
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I have no problem with cranking out a bunch of warriors with the anticaption of gunpowder and the magical effects of Leo.

Keeping on building warriors after gunpowder is a crock

	16-05-2003 17:05									#201
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I'm still not convinced either way.

	16-05-2003 18:48									#202
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Interesting... it's rare that there is an issue that doesn't seem black and white.

	16-05-2003 18:53									#203
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Yeah, While I agree that it's a bug and shouldn't be done, it does require some planning (a little anyway) and I don't see it happening that often, and we usually are wrapping up around gunpowder. But enough waffling. I'll say no.

	16-05-2003 19:52									#204
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i say yes of course, but will go with the majority.....!

	16-05-2003 22:36									#205
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Any consensus on the definition of an artic start yet?

	16-05-2003 22:44									#206
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*rings bell* oh butler..can i have a sandwhich while i read the rah rules book pls

	16-05-2003 22:51									#207
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quote: Originally posted by ColdWizard Any consensus on the definition of an artic start yet?

It seems to be cause for a restart. AN exact definition is somewhat difficult. So just say. "an artic start is defined by starting on the artic with no accessibility to the main continent within 3 squares of your opening position"

	16-05-2003 23:15									#208
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nice summary rah...... thats the coles notes version of it...i am sure rules can be bent if some strange scenario rears its ugly head...

	16-05-2003 23:59									#209
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Yeah, it was tough to put into words. Some judgement will be necessary, but we are traditionally sensitive to those types of things.

Now let's get back to the warrior upgrade discussion.
I say you can complete the warriors that you have in production when leos is built but then must change the production queue when the warrior is built.

	17-05-2003 00:43									#210
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But rah... you usually get Gunpowder AFTER Leo's is built