14-02-2003 00:14									#1
	What did history teach us? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

For a while a specific point in the ever ongoing debate/spamfest over the Iraq-issue has grown on me. A current thread made me start this one but as I just said, it has been on my mind for a while. I'd like to point out that it's not my intention to take a definite stand on the issue but to bring up a interesting detail. I'm not a big fan of analysing discourses and so forth but when it comes to details I do think it says something.

Some posters and people in general that are more or less pro-war refers to history to make a point. What I'm talking about is of cource (as most of you should have guessed by now) the idea and history of the appeasement-policy. Debaters point to what can be learned from the disaster in München in 1938.

However, my point is, that there might be a serious flaw with a selective way of learning from history. After all, history has and means a lot of things and can also be intepreted in a lot of ways. Is this appeasment-leason really a valid point? What has the history of imperialism and 'the white mans burden' to teach us?

My position is that one should be really careful to think that there's some easy clear-cut leasons from history. History never repeats itself but as a farce.

Discuss!

	14-02-2003 00:18									#2
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No!

	14-02-2003 00:24									#3
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Oh sod off!

	14-02-2003 00:26									#4
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No!

	14-02-2003 00:45									#5
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I should have guessed that this was a bit to far from random but predictable spam for the OT nowadays. I got orders from the 'big chief' (no my gf, not Bush!) so I'll have to leave this thread to its not so fortunate faith.

	14-02-2003 01:02									#6
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History is not an intellectual cudgel. Selectively picking out isolated incidents from the past to support your argument or point is dishonest at best.

Is this the line of thinking that you are aiming for?

	14-02-2003 01:12									#7
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Hitory teaches us:
Kill your enemies
Help your friends
Do not screw around with thoses inbetween

	14-02-2003 01:29									#8
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quote: Hitory teaches us: Kill your enemies Help your friends Do not screw around with thoses inbetween

Lefty speaks the truth.

I wish all of our EUnuch allies could grasp this simple lesson...

	14-02-2003 01:39									#9
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He who desires peace should prepare for war.

Some ancient roman guy.

	14-02-2003 01:42									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten [q] I wish all of our EUnuch allies could grasp this simple lesson...

You don't have any allies anymore, eunuch or otherwise.

	14-02-2003 02:41									#11
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No permanent friends, just permanent interests;

some Victorian chap

	14-02-2003 03:58									#12
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The only thing we learn from history is that no one learns anything from history. Hegel, I think. One of them guys.

	14-02-2003 04:00									#13
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quote: What did history teach us?

Don't elect a Bush president.

We learned, but it didn't matter.

	14-02-2003 04:01									#14
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The one thing I have learned from history is that boring eras make for boring movies.

	14-02-2003 06:38									#15
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There are many important lessons in history.


One is that people have always been the same.



Other conclusions are impossible to make with certainty.

From that there are good lessons for debating (any subject):

One, make as little historical analogies and references in a debate as you can. They are always easily refuted.

Two, exploit your oponent if he makes a lot of those.

Three, us humans have a weakness in debates, we always respond to an analogy, and historical analogy especially. So you can use them to sidetrack (threadjack) a line of conversation that was getting inconvenient.


I'm feeling smart today, can't be helped

	14-02-2003 06:39									#16
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The history thought us this:

WE ARE AS STUPID AS EVER!

	14-02-2003 06:41									#17
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Great minds think alike OFITG

	14-02-2003 06:41									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Hitory teaches us: Kill your enemies Help your friends Do not screw around with thoses inbetween Lefty speaks the truth. I wish all of our EUnuch allies could grasp this simple lesson...

Well sooner or later you will have to kill everyone if this is your motto.

Once you are the last man standing have fun.

	14-02-2003 06:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Great minds think alike OFITG

	14-02-2003 06:54									#20
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History taught us that the lessons learned in one generation are forgotten in the next. Evil dictators are not pacified by peacenicks holding up written agreements with them and saying we will have peace in our time. History taught us that people will believe anything but the truth. We are blinded by optimism. All men are not reasonable.

	14-02-2003 07:00									#21
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I believe history should be learned. What I see, is that it's time for the US to bring home all the troops from around the world. It's time to let the rest of the world to handle their problems. The US should stop trying to be the World Police. I’m not saying we should not get involved, but only in cases where the U.N. has asked for our help and only when all other countries are willing to send in an equal number of troops.

	14-02-2003 07:03									#22
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Well said, Linc!

And for the record, I'm one of the guys in agreement that appeasement *is* a valid lesson to be learned.

Bullies, no matter how big or small, are all the same. You give them an inch, they'll take more.

You give them what they want once, they'll come back and ask for something else. If you don't give, they'll start sabre rattling, and eventually, do something you don't particularly like.

Bullies love brinkmanship. They love pushing to see how far they can go, and how much they can get away with.

No matter how large or small, if you give a bully what he wants, you legitimize him and his tactics. That is a form of appeasement, and it only prompts further demands. It only prompts the bully to further thumb his nose at the world community.

We've seen it time and time again. Eventually, you'd think we'd get the idea.

-=Vel=-

	14-02-2003 07:05									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Oh sod off!

Seriously. And for good. Go away.

Comparing one situation to another generalizes details, forces, events, people, etc., and makes for a very selective memory that makes analyses based on factors which may or may not have anything to do with current situations.

	14-02-2003 07:09									#24
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History is Bunk.

Sacrilege from H. Ford

	14-02-2003 07:09									#25
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I agree tandee, and yet, there is a certain common sensical wisdom to be drawn from similar events.

If, as a four year old child, you carelessly tread through a campfire's embers and burn the hell out of your feet, later in life (say, when you're eight or ten), you reach toward the red-glowing eye of the stove without thinking, you are likely to remember that not-so-pleasant sensation on your feet and pause for a moment.

There's enough of a similarity there that, even though some of the details are different, you're not likely to put your hand ON the eye of the stove just to see if it is, in fact, different in some splendid way.

I think there's a certain wisdom to be found in studying the patterns of history. One thing you can be sure of, no matter what the particulars, bullies all act in remarkably similar ways.

-=Vel=-

	14-02-2003 07:23									#26
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Oh, of course, patterns are an important part of studying history, but what we are talking about here is grossly generalizing and comparing two specific situations, forcing square details of one event into the round specifics of another event. Some of the pieces may fit, but it's important to remember that some, if not most, do not.

Please tell me you're not comparing complex international relations to burning your hand!

	14-02-2003 07:26									#27
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quote: Originally posted by tandeetaylor Please tell me you're not comparing complex international relations to burning your hand!

It's an appropriate metaphor. One learns history not to get burned again.

	14-02-2003 07:27									#28
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How you see history depends on your political bias. For that matter how you write history depends on your political bias. If you take peoples political bias into account (and you follow the money) you will do well.

	14-02-2003 07:28									#29
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Indeed I am not.... (but, I agree with the above that the metaphore is an appropriate one). Only pointing out that you can see bullies in action on any school yard playground, any day of the week, and their actions are a mirror image of the international bullies we see today (including the leaders of NK and Iraq).

After so long a time exposed to the antics of bullies, one comes to recognize certain patterns of behavior that are universal to all.

Very true that it is important to keep the particulars of each situation in mind, but equally important, I would say, is to remember that a bully is, at the end of the day, just like all the other bullies. They will be the men that they are, and because of that, their actions are at least somewhat predictable.

-=Vel=-

	14-02-2003 07:30									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Static23 It's an appropriate metaphor. One learns history not to get burned again.

Not it's not. Heat = heat, fire = fire. We're talking about different people, different cultures, different background, etc.