14-02-2003 04:52									#1
	Iron Colony Increase Your PM Length

Well... War is here.

Personally I don't care if Lux survives or not. (Advantages of not being a diplomat )What I'm really concerned about is our own security and our iron source being soooooooooooooo far away.

We talked a few turns ago about the idea of building a colony in the iron. I think that this must be considered like an option now. The Pamplona Worker (now next to Saragossa) will finish the road in 2 turns. I'm willing to send it building a road to the iron and probably use some of the other workers if they can join to help in time. I also would like to request protection if they finally go for that mission.

Right now, unless I receive eloquent arguments trying to convince me on the contrary, Pamplona Worker is starting the road to the iron. Please comment here your thoughts about that.

	14-02-2003 04:55									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Oh. And you can also use this thread to bash me for changing all the carefull micro-management planning (or at least part of it )

	14-02-2003 04:58									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Instead of a colony, I would start the road. But before it is finished I think we will have another settler. Lets send it down there early and build a city (thus we still have our worker).

We only need to connect the iron to a city with a barracks. We should start to produce barracks and warriors in as many cities as possible, as well as slow down our research and increase our gold. Then we can upgrade 5 swords, and march them into ND as all of their swords are up north dealing with Lux.

An idea. Comments.

	14-02-2003 05:01									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Iron is important now, I agree...
I hope you will also start building the road we talked so much about earlier... the Madrid-Pamplona trail.
(it takes time, one huge peak to cross)

	14-02-2003 07:10									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Let's look at the overall plan here

1) we will have the Horses connected up shortly
2) Saragosa is in need of more production, due to it's higher Waste.
3) We still need a worker to build the road from Pamplona to Madrid (18 turns total for 1 worker).
4) until that connection is made, Saragossa is the only city that can build mounted units, so it will need it's sheild output increased.
4) the Madrid & Barcelona Workers have many things to do for the next 20 turns, so they can't be used.

Saragosa & Santiago will both be building workers after they finish their walls. That will likely cover each cities first 20 turns of builds. We will have some more Settlers coming relatively soon for the other cities.. They take time to build, the roads take time to build, we need time to get our treasury built up, we need time to get warriors to upgrade.

We have limited Workers that cannot work very fast. We are in the mist of a large amount of REX. We have distance and actually the Distraction of this war, to keep our northern Neighbors occupyed. If we keep to the main path, and just alter it slightly, instead of jumping at shadows, we will be o.k.

We are reacting to the situation and not proactively planning all of this. We need a co-ordinatied plan for dealing with all of this. But mostly, WE NEED TO REALISE THAT ALL OF THIS WILL TAKE TIME!! So lets use it wisely.

E_T

	14-02-2003 08:13									#6
	Suffering from ads?

Please complete chopping down the forest near Madrid. That forest will help Madrid build A BARRACKS on schedule, which in turn, once our iron is connected, willl allow us to upgrade warriors to swordsmen. This is as critical as the source of iron. Please complete the cutting of that forest.

THEN I would BEG OF YOU to please build a road between Madrid and Pamplona, that horses from Saragossa and iron from further west or south can be connected to Madrid and be used along with Madrid's barracks and Madrid's fantastic production to pump out veteran military units of good quality (as opposed to warriors and archers).

Completing the road between Barcelona and Madrid before moving to build the road between Madrid and Pamplona might be nice, since it might just be a waste of time to move the workers before the Barcelona road is done.

Just some things you should watch out for...

	14-02-2003 16:21									#7
	Remove this text

I suggest that Pamplona builds a worker next, and starts building the Pamplona-Madrid road ASAP.

The Madrid & Barcelona workers should continue their job plan without changes, and the worker near Saragossa can perform a colony in about 20 turns, after building the roads between Saragossa and Santiago and connecting Santiago to the iron.

IMO, this plan allows connecting all our cities and the iron in the fastest manner (in about 20 turns). In the meanwhile, ND will be busy with Lux and thus we'll have the time to start building our army.

	14-02-2003 16:38									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

IMHO, colony is only worth when we do not intend to settle the area where the mine is located. This is not the case. We should just earmark the next settler for the iron city, and meantime build veteran horsemen.

	14-02-2003 16:51									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT IMHO, colony is only worth when we do not intend to settle the area where the mine is located. This is not the case. We should just earmark the next settler for the iron city, and meantime build veteran horsemen.

OK, but this will take longer, and i wonder if we currently have the time to wait the next settler from Pamplona.

Building a settler will delay the construction of the Pamplona-Madrid road and consequently the ability to build swordmen or horsemen in Madrid.

On the other hand, as soon as Santiago will appear on the map, we'll have to manage the ND's wrath, and I'm not sure that we can calmly continue our REX plan instead of building our army ASAP. In addition we'll have supplementary difficulties to defend the iron city against the possible ND attacks.

	14-02-2003 17:03									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by astrologix OK, but this will take longer, and i wonder if we currently have the time to wait the next settler from Pamplona. Building a settler will delay the construction of the Pamplona-Madrid road and consequently the ability to build swordmen or horsemen in Madrid.

I did not say that the settler must be build before the worker. The top priority is the road Madrid to Pamplona. But we can IMHO defend the empire with horsemen, and spending a worker in a colony, when we are really short of workers, does not seems the good move.

	14-02-2003 19:12									#11
	Put an end to popups!

IF ND goes to War and Takes out Lux, they should have no need for the land south of the Jungle. Even if ND just reduces Lux, there still will be no nead for them to look south for land.

I am going to try to have a consolidated plan, to present to the Govenors & Slave master tomorrow.

E_T

	14-02-2003 19:25									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well, the next queue for Pamplona was to be Settler, as you all probably know. The current queue is a Spearman which is slated to be done in 1650 BC (3 turns from now).

Here is a comparison for building a Settler followed by a Worker and vice versa...

Settler first...
Begun in 1650 BC/Completed in 1475 BC (6 turns from its start/10 turns from present -- 1725 BC)

1475 BC -- Queue Worker
Begun that year/Completed in 1400 BC (3 turns from its start/13 turns from now)

OR...

Worker first...
Begun in 1650 BC/Completed in 1575 BC (3 turns from its start/6 turns from present -- 1725 BC)

1575 BC -- Queue Settler
Begun that year/Completed in 1400 BC (7 turns from its start/13 turns from now)

I currently am considering both...

	14-02-2003 20:07									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

By my estimates, the present worker (working alone) could build a colony to the iron in 1150 BC (23 turns from now). It could connect it by road in 950 BC (31 turns from now).

If Pamplona produced another worker as its next queue to assist with the task, a colony could be up in 1225 BC (20 turns from now) or the iron could be connected by road in 1125 BC (24 turns from now).

Pamplona's next queue would most definitely then be a Settler that could reach site #9 (going by Arnelos' map in the Map Room) and have the new city founded in 1300 BC (17 turns from now) and would culturally control the iron prior to any road connecting it.

	14-02-2003 20:28									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by E_T IF ND goes to War and Takes out Lux, they should have no need for the land south of the Jungle. Even if ND just reduces Lux, there still will be no nead for them to look south for land. E_T

Even if you are right, which I do not believe, this is not a good argument.

The current situation demonstrates that we cannot play fully our part on our continent without a strong military, particularly when your closest neighbour starts a crusade. We have to forget REX for a moment to build a military big enough to deter ND from attacking us.

	14-02-2003 20:44									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just a quick answer to everyone who has replied about the subject (excuse me for not answering every one in a separate message):

Godking and Davout:
I dislike the idea of sacrifyng a worker to build a colony as much as you do. We have very few workers and too much things to do. But first things first. In the present situation refusing some plan just because it is not elegant could be the difference between survival and being banquished. The road will be needed anyway, so the worker will start doing it. If by the time he arrives a settler is ready then it won't be necessary to sacrify him, but if the settler is still several turns away I will build the colony. Time is crucial.

Plaguerat:
Madrid is planning to build a barracks to upgrade warriors nearby. In that case the road between Pamplona and Madrid would be very useful.

E_T:
I agree that we are reacting more than planning, but sometimes that's the better way to go. I have no doubt that carefully schedulled plans are a lot more efficient and productive, but not the main objective is not to maximize the production but to get what we really need as soon as posible. Anyway I'm eager to see the new plans you are preparing

Astrologix:
I coincide completely with your analysis. Every Spanish noble agrees that continuing calmly with our REX plan would produce the best results, but I'm afraid that ND won't allow us to do that.

Arnelos:
My opinion is that defense is the most important thing for Spain now, and the barracks in Madrid will help. So count with the shield from the forest.

Ruby_maser:
I'm very happy to know that Pamplona is studyng the posibility of creating more workers to help the existing ones. This will help us helping our civilization

	14-02-2003 20:45									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser By my estimates, the present worker (working alone) could build a colony to the iron in 1150 BC (23 turns from now). It could connect it by road in 950 BC (31 turns from now). If Pamplona produced another worker as its next queue to assist with the task, a colony could be up in 1225 BC (20 turns from now) or the iron could be connected by road in 1125 BC (24 turns from now). Pamplona's next queue would most definitely then be a Settler that could reach site #9 (going by Arnelos' map in the Map Room) and have the new city founded in 1300 BC (17 turns from now) and would culturally control the iron prior to any road connecting it.

Sorry ruby_maser, I don't understand you

do you mean that Pamplona will change his current production (spearman) to settler and then to worker to help the present worker to connect the iron ?

Could you please write down a time line ?

	14-02-2003 21:03									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: if the settler is still several turns away I will build the colony

We will have then a chance to discuss it again.

	14-02-2003 21:10									#18
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT We will have then a chance to discuss it again.

I wouldn't be a good diplomat. I don't like to discuss the same thing several times...

	14-02-2003 21:19									#19
	Put an end to popups!

Nobody knows what the situation will be in 15 or 20 turns, so it is not a matter of diplomacy but of realism.

	14-02-2003 21:45									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If we are under a great deal of diplomatic pressure (a real threat) ,
you should consider building that colony on the iron.

However, we can have an effective mobile defence force by using horsemen.
Please, try to use a settler if diplomacy goes well... we have so much land unsettled.

	14-02-2003 22:09									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Even if you are right, which I do not believe, this is not a good argument. The current situation demonstrates that we cannot play fully our part on our continent without a strong military, particularly when your closest neighbour starts a crusade. We have to forget REX for a moment to build a military big enough to deter ND from attacking us.

I fully agree with you DAVOUT.

I don't want ND being informed by his Military Advisor for many turns away that our army is weaker than their.

We must have a stronger military ASAP

	14-02-2003 22:28									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by astrologix Sorry ruby_maser, I don't understand you do you mean that Pamplona will change his current production (spearman) to settler and then to worker to help the present worker to connect the iron ?

Señor Astrologix,

What I mean is to finish building the spearman and then begin either a settler or a worker. The spearman will be useful to serve as an escort for the settler when it is eventually built.

The only question is in what order should the worker and settler be built after the spearman.

In the quote of mine you posted, I estimated what our current worker can do by himself and compared it to what he could do if another worker was built by Pamplona first thing after the completion of the spearman.