14-02-2003 06:58									#1
	Operation Double Edge - our grand plan Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

OK, guys, you better get a bottle of beer, this is going to be very long... I whipped myself to an insane amount of spreadsheet calculations and simulations using Tibi's Lego simulator (btw, great tool! what about updating it once we know all of Legos Major? ). All the numbers listed below are verified to be precise.

I will start by explaining what lead me to preparing the plan, continue with the simulation data collected, and finish with listing pros and cons of this plan.

Current Geopolitical Situation

There are three landmasses in our world. Presumably the biggest one is shared by GoW, ND, LI, & RPers. GoW is very small, ND is big and likely to get bigger, RPers are also quite big and doing fine. LI is currently in big troubles, being on the verge of war with ND. Another landmass, which is separated from the first one by a narrow one-tile strait, is hosting Voxes (closer to the big landmass) and GS (currently being unable to go beyond a certain chokepoint held by Voxes). All these teams have direct or indirect contacts, allowing them to share their technologies.

Legoland ended up on its own landmass, which is admittedly unbelievably large. Unfortunately, we are separated from everybody else by ocean, most likely too wide to be safely crossed by an ordinary galley. This is both a blessing and a curse. We do not need to worry about any wars for many many turns, as overseas invasions are extremely costly at all times, but especially in the ancient era. We have the luxury of being able to REX at will, picking the best city sites, distributing the cities so as to maximize our future output. A builder's paradise.

OTOH, and this is very important, we are in great danger of getting seriously behind in the technology race, because with no contacts and no tech trading, we cannot match the combined research power of the rest of the world. We are likely to have tough times once getting to the others. A major annoyance would also be if another civ reached our continent and started colonizing it before we fully grab all the land that is here for us.

How to Address Possible Threats

Considering what we know about our landmass and about starting spots of other teams, it is highly unlikely that we will be able to get to them safely with an ordinary galley, having to resort to suicide galleys... which is both unreliable and costly.

My personal belief is that even if we did our best and got very lucky, we would finally make contact when all other teams are well (2-3 techs) ahead of us, whatever we do. We would have to be very lucky to have a tech others would be interested in trading for, which would likely force us into an unpleasant position of big, but weak empire.

The only solution to this is, IMHO, to get the Great Library. With the Great Library, we would not have to fear lagging behind in tech, as any tech deficit would be quickly fixed once we make contacts with others. We would not need to beg for technologies of others, we would not have to accept deals involving express or implied getting "indebted" to another team that would help us to catch up (like RPers). Our own research would be enough to keep us busy improving our cities with the basic stuff, patiently waiting until we finally meet someone else. Fortunately, our defenders will be useful up until knights and even later on.

The problem of another team settling on our landmass also has an elegant solution. Considering the fact that we are unable to get to others (safely) without the Great Lighthouse, it must apply vice versa, too. Others are (or would be) unable to get to us without the Great Lighthouse until Navigation. So, IMHO, the best way to keep our opponents off the lands given to us by the grace of God Almighty, is to build the Great Lighthouse ourselves, denying its effects to others.

Now, this is two great wonders. Has vondrack gone mad, you ask? Well, maybe he has, maybe he hasn't... It seems obvious to me that the combination of these two wonders would be unbelievably powerful and could largely win the game for us very early. If others are unable to reach us, giving us time enough to get a good grip on all of the great land and resources, while not being able to force us behind in technology, we would get so powerful that there would be no power strong enough to defeat us later. After successfully settling the whole of our continent, we'd be practically invincible, happily resorting to frantic building, grabbing the key wonders, while watching others desperately try to think up something to stop us... I may be too optimistic, but if you look at the latest minimap data, I believe you will agree that the area we have at our disposal is unbelievably large.

So, the basics of my grand plan, which I named Operation Double Edge (to refer to the two "edges" of the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse, while also reminding of possible "double-edgedness" of this plan), is building the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse. My simulations show that there is a very good chance we could do it without actually betting everything on a single card.

How to build the Two Edges

We would have to set two of our core cities, namely Jackson and Panama, to build the wonders. Jackson would go for the Great Library and would finish it on turn #93 (710BC). Panama would go for the Great Lighthouse and finish it on turn 105 (470BC).

The progress of the Great Library construction (and several possible later builds) in Jackson is illustrated in the following table:



There is nothing really tricky about this build. The only problem I can see would be if another team was already building a prebuild now and eventually beat us to the Great Library. The only thing we can do is to hope that nobody started a prebuild yet... and even if someone did, that their city will not be as strong shield-wise as Jackson. My personal opinion is that it is unlikely that anyone else would be able to set aside a soon-to-be-11-shield city (one mined cow + 3 mined bonus grasslands + two mined hills!) for a wonder build this early.

However, if we eventually lose the race to someone else, we could still get Pyramids, which would admittedly be also of great use to us, speeding up our REXing, allowing us to catch up slowly, but steadily by researching the cheapest techs in 4 turns each, using the sheer raw research power of all those cities of ours.


Much tougher is Panama... after trying countless variants, I have been able to fine-tune the process as illustrated by the following table:

EDIT: table removed due to an embarrasing mistake I did, resulting the whole schedule go out of sync... you will find a revised, correct schedule later in this thread (timing remains the same).

As you can see, we would have to use the worker being currently built in Red Bricks (yeah, that's the Robbie guy), eventually adding him and Leopold to Panama in order to speed up the build as much as possible, delaying any improvements in the Red Bricks area effectively for ten turns. Two workers are certainly not that little in this time, but considering the fact that we will be able to "spit them out" in just two turns after completing the wonder, if needed, makes this temporary sacrifice justified, IMHO.

As you can see, there is a couple of tricks involved (like adding the workers at some time, mining a non-horse hill first, juggling with the worked tiles - that's the green line - etc.). However, I have personally tested that what this table shows is correct and that this way is most probably optimal. There is another way to build the Great Lighthouse 1 turn earlier, but that one unfortunately largely rules out the possibility of making use of any extra resources we may yet to discover (iron, bonus shields under the jungle tiles).

Once we discover iron (probably on turn 65), we may find out one of the hills near Panama has iron - that would help us complete The Lighthouse 3 turns earlier. Similarly, bonus shield under the riverbank jungle tile would speed up the completion by 4 turns and a bonus shield under the other jungle tile by 1 turn (coupled with any of the other two extras, it would be even 2 turns less). Completing the wonder on turn 105 is the worst case scenario, completing it on turn 96 is the best case scenario (an iron + 2 bonus grasslands under the jungle tiles).

The timing is done in such a way that we would be able to make full use of any iron hills available - the worker is scheduled to go mining a hill shortly after the discovery of the Iron Working (on condition we research IW first, Literature second - see later on).

Research

I have not put exact figures together, but it is very obvious that even with the current beaker output, we will be able to research Literature in about 13 turns and Iron Working in 8 turns. As there is no hurry to have Literature long before completing the Great Library (we can use Pyramids as a prebuild if needed), I would - contrary to what I stated earlier in the Enlightened thread - suggest going for the Iron Working first. Not because of Swordsmen... but to reveal iron resources. If we are lucky again, one of our wonders might be done a bit ahead of the schedule.

Literature would be next.

I would then suggest beelining for Republic, tentatively planning to switch to Republic shortly after finishing our two wonders. That would further speed us up. But this part does not really belong to the Operation Double Edge - we can choose a different path as well... due to the high beaker outputs from the wonder building cities, we should be doing quite well.

We may also decide to slow our research down (since we will get the techs eventually anyway), saving money later helping us to mass-upgrade our military or run a Republic on a deficit spending for some time... choices would be plentiful.

Contacts with Other Teams

Even though it may sound like a heresy, I would hope we'd not make any contacts prior to completing both wonders. The reason is simple - until others have contact with us, they are "blind"... they can't se if we are building any wonders and which ones they are. Besides, if we succed to get the Great Library, we will not need to worry about contacts. We would get those techs eventally anyway...

Thus, I would only build one Galley that would make a roundtrip around our landmass, looking for possible ways to others, helping us to speed making contacts later on, after we get our wonder combo. I would not press the galley too far - just to get a bit better picture of our coastal waters.

Diplomacy

While getting the Great Library will be primarily a matter of raw shield output/power, getting the Lighthouse will actually be also a matter of smart diplomacy. We need other teams to believe/realize that they do not need it and that they would be wasting shields building it. It should not be that difficult, as most of them have established ingame contacts with one another anyway... thus feeling little need to go overseas, hoping to meet our lost civilization. In order to make sure that even Gathering Storm know they need just an ordinary galley to get to the others, redstar1 has already started arranging a meeting with their ambassador...

Caveats

1) We will risk wasting some shields if beaten to the wonders we'd be after. However, Pyramids would be also very useful to us, and the extra commerce of the Colossus wouldn't hurt either.

2) We will slightly delay the development of the Red Brick area, plus we will consume two workers in the process.

3) We will stretch our military power. As both of our super productive cities would be building wonders, we would have to rely on the new cities (not yet founded) to provide escorts for some of the Farmeville settlers. Hopefully, our exploring units will be coming back home by that time, taking care of the most urgent assignements. As it is highly unlikely that anyone else would directly attack us, I believe that this risk is acceptable - once we are done with the wonders, we will quickly catch up, as Jackson and Panama will both be able to crank out troops at a very high rate.

Final Comments

Be so kind and carefully think this plan over. It is a major thing. It definitely is not risk-free, that I admit. But to win this game, we will have to risk at one time or another. There is no such possibility like playing it safe all the time and winning eventually. There are some outstanding players in other teams and there is hardly anything we could do so much better. Our isolation may turn out to be our ultimate advantage... we just have to make the best use of it.

IMHO, the risk posed by this plan is well calculated and pretty much acceptable. Possible gains (which are enormous) far outweigh possible losses (which would be better described as "annoyances" - like having to let someone else settle on our continent because of weak military).

One lovely thing about this plan is that it has almost no negative effect on our REXing. Farmerville will be able to build one settler every 10 turns, Legopolis will be building a Merc+Settler combo every 8 turns (I have done calcs for both these cities similar to what I did for Jackson and Panama... but as they are not really related to the wonder building stuff, I am not posting them here). Before the Operation Double Edge is over, we will be able to build 11 settlers! That's 11 more cities... and I am not considering the new cities that might actually build something, too...

OK, that's it. Your comments, please.

Last edited by vondrack on 16-02-2003 at 23:19

	14-02-2003 09:54									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Great plan and well defined. I appreciate your efforts. Ok so enough compliments, now lets poke a few holes in it.

First off, obviously we need to go for the Great Library. That is primary based on our isolation. It's no garentee that we will make it to the GL first, but we got a good chance.

I really like your idea of going for 2 early wonders. Since it does not interfere with REXing, it a no lose situation.

I don't believe that the Great Lighthouse is the best second wonder. The argument for building the Great Lighthouse is based on a set of possibilities that are highly unlikely. First you must have a civ that gets lucky with a suicide galley or builds the Great Lighthouse. As you said, the suicide galley probably will not happen. Contact using the Great Lighthouse will not happen until the approximately 100BC.

Let's assume another civ makes contact with us earlier than 100 BC. To justify us building the Great Lighthouse, the other civ must have the guts to build a city so far from their capital. They must build a city that will be very poorly defended. They must build a city that will ruin any political relations with us.

I think any civ would not be foolish enough to build a city on our continent. In that case, there is no argument for the Great Lighthouse.

So what would I suggest besides the Great Lighthouse? I think the only other option would be the Colossus. We would actually use this wonder (instead of avoiding the possible use with the Great Lighthouse). The extra commerce in Panama would be huge. Panama already has the potential for lots of commerce. The Colossus is effective until the discovery of Flight, which is many, many turns away. Finally, the best argument is that is 100 G cheaper. Based on your simulation, we would finish in turn 93, which is when the Great Library would be completed.

All in all, I think the combination of the Great Library and the Colossus would be a better choice. Ok, now is time to knock holes in this alternate plan.

	14-02-2003 09:59									#3
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My only problem with this plan is redstar contacting GS... IIRC I am the GS ambassador.

	14-02-2003 10:52									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Excellent work, Vondrack! The GLib is, of course, a no-brainer for us. I'm a little torn now between the GLh and the Collosus... I'm going to have to mull that one over some more.

The only thing I can really see that would throw a kink in the plan is the possibility of one of the teams getting a Great Leader out of this pending war. However, if that happens, they might need to use it on an army if things remain tumultuous.

	14-02-2003 12:04									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Great plan and great work

OK, my 2 cents:

First, going for 2 worders will force us to make public that we are building one of them, as we can't build Palace in 2 cities at the same time. We could use a FP of course, however I'm not sure if it's already available, but I think not. We can trick them of course, starting some other wonder that the one we're really after.

Losing the 2 workers is not a problem IMHO, as we can build one anytime in Legopolis.

About the GLh or Collossus issue: I like the Collossus and its boost to the commerce output, but the GLh would have admitedly its own benefits. First, we would deny it from others (who otherwise could come and settle here; likely or not, it is possible) and second, it'd allow us to travel all around the world (and faster, too), make contact with other civs and thus trade easier, sell map pieces with coastline details or islands near other teams and other possible benefits.

They both are good. Don't forget that we have 40 turns to decide which of them to build. Therefor from my point of view: green light for operation Double Edge.

Edit: Apropos Lego-simulator: I update it after almost every turn, with the newly discovered map pieces. It's just I don't "compile" a new version until there are some major changes/events in the game's developement (we start working on a new tech, etc)
The problem is, I ca't simulate accumulated shield for wonder building; the unit disbanding trick won't work here.

Last edited by Tiberius on 14-02-2003 at 12:12

	14-02-2003 14:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops I don't believe that the Great Lighthouse is the best second wonder. The argument for building the Great Lighthouse is based on a set of possibilities that are highly unlikely.

For everybody suggesting that the Great Lighhouse would not be that great second choice: what I failed to mention in the Operation Double Edge draft is that without the Great Lighthouse, we would have to rely on suicide galleys to make contacts with others. And I just don't like anything suicidal...

While I would very much prefer to remain hidden in the dark up until the completion of the Great Lighthouse, it will be necessary to reach others ASAP once we have our wonderous combo. If we wait too long, we might easily lose any chances of going for the great early medieval wonders - especially Sistine Chapel and later J. S. Bach's Cathedral will be vital to get, as we are pretty much screwed on luxuries, risking to be too dependent on luxuries got through trading.

Preventing others from reaching us and know anything about where we live and how we are getting on is the less important (even though not unimportant) part of this strategy. Making ourselves able to reach others is the key part.

And even if fail to build it, my second choice would be the Pyramids, as their effect never expires and seems to be more of an advantage to me than the few extra commerce coming from the Colossus. Admittedly, the problem of the Pyramids is we would trigger our GA while still in despotism... However, as I would hope for others to postpone Pyramids for later because of their high shield cost, we might gamble and switch to Republic prior to completing them...

quote: Originally posted by quantum_mechani My only problem with this plan is redstar contacting GS... IIRC I am the GS ambassador.

Oh, yes, sorry for that. The problem is you post rarely here, creating a possibly false impression of being not very active. You were also away while there were initial contacts made with GS. DeepO, their ambassador, already talked to me and redstar, establishing a friendly relationship. We believe it would be best if we talk to him directly this time. However, this might be an excellent opportunity to officially introduce you to him as our ambassador and get you "into the picture", leaving all future contacts in your hands. Would you be able to take part in the chat tentatively scheduled for this Saturday?

Also, if it's at least sometimes possible for you, try dropping in to our chatroom - I am usually there and redstar1 very often, too, able to discuss the most imminent needs concerning the foreign policy.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius First, going for 2 worders will force us to make public that we are building one of them, as we can't build Palace in 2 cities at the same time.

I have just made sure (by setting up a test hotseat game) that what I believed was true: you can't see wonders being constructed by civilizations you haven't established an ingame contact with (possibly even up until you establish an embassy with them, not sure about that...). The F7 screen simply does not show them. You get the "wonder completed by ..." message like a bolt out of blue. That's my primary reason for preferring to remain hidden in the dark as long as any of our wonders is still under construction.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius They both are good. Don't forget that we have 40 turns to decide which of them to build.

This is very true. Even if I consider the edge of the Great Lighthouse very important, that part of the plan can easily be modified, should we see fit.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Edit: Apropos Lego-simulator: I update it after almost every turn, with the newly discovered map pieces. It's just I don't "compile" a new version until there are some major changes/events in the game's developement (we start working on a new tech, etc) The problem is, I ca't simulate accumulated shield for wonder building; the unit disbanding trick won't work here.

Yes, I know. That was my reason for mentioning "once we know all of Legos Major". Once we know all of the landmass and have no more goody huts to pop, it will be enough to simply play a scenario started off from your simulator, doing everything as in the real game, just saving the game after every turn. This should work very well up until making our first contacts.

	14-02-2003 14:28									#7
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Quantum: I wasn't aware that you were actively in discussions with them. Send me a PM and we will discuss it. I am happy for ambassadors to conduct contact between us and other civs.

As for the plan.... Fantastic work Vondrack, I think we all owe you a birthday card this year I think its a good idea to go for Iron Working as city placement is important and I would prefer to find out sooner rather than later where the iron is. You've shown how we can afford to chase two wonders and I agree it seems a low risk - high yeild situation. I'm not convinced about the Glh though. Building a wonder just to deny it to the other teams, who may or may not intend building it anyway seems a bit of a waste. I would prefer the Pyramids if the truth be told. Then again, 11 settlers should be enough to cover most of our landmass after city expansion so maybe this needs a bit more thinking about...

All in all very good work and I think the plan makes a lot of sense. If it went ahead as stated I wouldn't have any major objections. It gives us quite a few turns to change our mind on the particular wonders which is good.

	14-02-2003 20:57									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Vondrack brought up an excellent point. My understanding about the Great Library, it only works if we have contact with the other civs. If we stay completely isolated, then we must rely on the other civs to find us. While with the GLh, we control the necessary contact. We could cross the sea and make contact, but they cannot follow us back.

When we get the GL, the other civs may want to avoid contact; therefore not trigger the GL.

Ahhh, so much to think about and so little brain to use.

	14-02-2003 21:16									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

As far as Quantum's conplaint, I have mixed feelings. I'm the ambassador for Lux, but I'm never involved in any of the "back door" discussions. I'm not a big chat room guy, but Zargon and other do it regularly. And while they chat, everyone is pumping each other for information. Sometimes deals are "suggested", but hopefully no promises are made.

On the otherhand:
In an official capacity, the Ambassador cannot do much unless directed by the Foreign Minister. If the FM avoids the official channel, and handles all relations himself, then the Ambassador has a right to be upset. This is what happening right now. The FM suggest deals for a MiniMap, asks the team for permission and closes the deal.

1. Maybe the Ambassador position is not needed? It definitely not need in the early game. It will be needed when our nation get's large.

2. I think during the informal chats, sensitive information is leaked out. To some extent, the high level officials have the authority to reveal information. I don't have any problem with the current arrangement.

3. For myself, I don't care. As long as the team approves all deals, As long as "sensitive" information is not leaked, I'm not going to be concerned. I'll continue to be the lame duck Ambassador to Lux.

	14-02-2003 22:37									#10
	Support Apolyton

Hey I'm an ambassador and an not lame duck in any way. I may not be able to make any deals but I can see if the is posiblity for one to be done. Also very important is that I scope for any info I can get form the other team that is what makes the ambassador post important I don't think the FAM could have enough time to do that with every single team.

	14-02-2003 22:48									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Nimitz, your one the regular chat room guys. I was talking about myself being the lame duck.

I don't do chat rooms much because they are a leading cause of cancer and chicks don't dig it.

	14-02-2003 23:39									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Oh, yes, sorry for that. The problem is you post rarely here, creating a possibly false impression of being not very active. You were also away while there were initial contacts made with GS. DeepO, their ambassador, already talked to me and redstar, establishing a friendly relationship. We believe it would be best if we talk to him directly this time. However, this might be an excellent opportunity to officially introduce you to him as our ambassador and get you "into the picture", leaving all future contacts in your hands. Would you be able to take part in the chat tentatively scheduled for this Saturday? Also, if it's at least sometimes possible for you, try dropping in to our chatroom - I am usually there and redstar1 very often, too, able to discuss the most imminent needs concerning the foreign policy.

Actually, I was there when we made first contact with GS - DeepO and I were the first offical ambassadors to exchange PMs. After two or three PMs back and forth (mostly about nothing, there wasn't much going on) I started having difficulties connecting to the internet; by the time I was back on line the mini-map trade was already over.

As for the chat room, wasn't the password changed or something? I think I tried to get in with the old one and it wouldn't allow me in...

	15-02-2003 00:49									#13
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oops... that quote didn't work right.

EDIT by vondrack: fixed

Last edited by vondrack on 15-02-2003 at 11:15

	15-02-2003 08:18									#14
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Maybe I'm crazy, but... what's wrong with the Pyramids in combination with the GLib? I like the GLh in certain circumstances - when there's a large sea, but not a large ocean, between my continent and another. But unless our exploratory galley uncovers something like that, I don't think +1 movement will help with suicide galleys much; it's the sea-crossing benefit I see as important.

Also, the Pyramids wouldn't force us to deal with an early GA, unless we also build a commercial wonder:

Colossus
Great Lighthouse
Magellan's Voyage
Smith's Trading Co.
United Nations
The Internet (of course)

As long as we avoid the GLh and the Colossus, we have a chance at a nice, middle-aged GA. And remember that there aren't too many Industrial wonders once you get out of the ancient age:

Pyramids
Hanging Gardens
Great Wall
Hoover Dam
Manhatten Project
The Internet

I think we can all agree the Great Wall is useless. And I personally dislike The HG, though I don't know your opinions about it. So, I see the Pyramids as the only good Industrial wonder before the Industrial Age, and I see it as key to having the option of a peaceful GA. But I'm opinionated like that. So if we do go for 2 wonders, I'll likely vote for Pyramids + GLib - unless there does seem to be only ocean between us and the rest of the world, in which case the GLh becomes much better.

	15-02-2003 12:18									#15
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quote: Also, the Pyramids wouldn't force us to deal with an early GA, unless we also build a commercial wonder:

Yeah, you are right... I somehow got confused and thought that once having the Great Lighthouse (a commercial wonder), The Pyramids (an industrial wonder) would trigger our GA, missing the fact that we consider building the Pyramids instead of the Great Lighthouse...

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep So if we do go for 2 wonders, I'll likely vote for Pyramids + GLib - unless there does seem to be only ocean between us and the rest of the world, in which case the GLh becomes much better.

I do agree that shall we find a way of getting to others without the Great Lighthouse, we may as well go for the Pyramids instead (now that I know we would have no problem with premature GA ). The risk of having someone else settle our continent will be low and building a 300-shield wonder "just to make sure" would be inappropriate. My current inclusion of the Great Lighthouse in the Operation Double Edge is based upon the assumption there is no way to get to others without it (and that assumption is based on what we have learned about our coastal waters so far... however, I admit, our knowledge is far from complete).

Actually, the need to better chart the waters surrounding us was my reason for planning to build that galley in Panama first, instead of going straight for the Great Lighthouse. We shall send that galley to sail around our landmass, looking for possible seaways to other continents. My rough estimate is that the galley should be done by the time we will need to make the decision about our second wonder. In case we find a suitable way to others, I would also seriously consider changing our plan to build Pyramids instead of the Great Lighthouse.

I will respond the ambassadorial issues, too, but in another thread. I would prefer having this thread left for the Operation Double Edge related discussion only.

P.S.: playing our turn yesterday, I noticed I had the starting position incorrectly copied into the first turn of my simulation, having few more shields already accumulated. Considering this error, The Great Lighthouse would be finished one turn later. However, as we will be missing the 300 shield mark by very little, I will have a look and try twisting the plan so that we get it still on Turn 105.

	16-02-2003 00:07									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack playing our turn yesterday, I noticed I had the starting position incorrectly copied into the first turn of my simulation, having few more shields already accumulated. Considering this error, The Great Lighthouse would be finished one turn later. However, as we will be missing the 300 shield mark by very little, I will have a look and try twisting the plan so that we get it still on Turn 105.

Well, this was a very embarrasing mistake... I carefully went through the whole sim, but based in on an incoreect starting situation. Well, I have fixed the error today, rerunning the whole sim. Fortunately, I was still able to finish the Great Lighthouse on the same Turn.



The major differences against the original plan:

1) we will CUT THE GAME FOREST first (affects this very turn!), later irrigating it - this will allow us to feed pop 7 in Panama)
2) we will need Jason to help a bit
3) we will make more money

A have also extended the table to show how long it would take to finish the Pyramids, if we changed our mind in the process and went for them instead of the Great Lighthouse.

Thinking of the arguments raised in your responses, I'm now considering The Pyramids much more of an option... even to the extent of being equally important as the Lighthouse, because of their neverexpiring effect. I agree that we will need the proper combination of wonders to trigger our GA... and Pyramids are undoubtedly the best industrial wonder available for a long time.

Well, I presume that the fundamental decision, to go for two great wonders, is generally supported by the whole team. The only question opened remains that of the second wonder to build.

OK, let's rock-n-roll!

	16-02-2003 06:29									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I was wondering what we were going to do with Panama once we built the galleys ...

I agree with most of the plan - I also agree that which wonders we end up building are not set in stone.

Pyramids would be a very viable alternative (assuming no one has built them by that point) to Gr Lighthouse (or even Gr Library if we do end up keeping up in tech). IIRC, right now we are "moderately advanced", so I suspect that we are in the middle of the pack tech wise.

I am always a bit wary of cutting down trees this early re: cutting down the game forest, especially as I am not sure - can we reach size 7 in Panama without an aquaduct? Wasn't sure that we were on the river or not as the angle may be fooling me...

My primary concern about the plan is our slow rate of producing new cities. Currently we are in a long lull of not building cities and from what Vondrack has told me - the plan after the granary is built is to build a merc then a settler and continue in that pattern in Legopolis.

Farmerville's first settler is a long way off - perhaps 12 turns away. Legoland will take a while to get its next settler off too.

Considering that RedBricks is a better shield producer than first thought (its 2 forest squares help out with that), perhaps we should evaluate whether it is better to build a settler now in Farmerville rather than a worker.

	16-02-2003 13:59									#18
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Radek, if you cut down the forest, doesn't this mean that the galley placeholder (the mercenary), will be ready earlier, I mean before Map Making?

	16-02-2003 14:33									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Radek, if you cut down the forest, doesn't this mean that the galley placeholder (the mercenary), will be ready earlier, I mean before Map Making?

Fortunately not. Map Making shall be discovered on Turn 58, just before the Turn 59, when the galley is to be finished (see the revised Panama production schedule and the latest summary table in the Chronicle). I would not mind if someone double checks, though... it is very close, I admit...

	16-02-2003 15:03									#20
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If Leopold finishes the clearing in turn 58, when do the extra shields add to Panama? In the beginning of turn 58 or at the end of it; or at the beginning at turn 59? If it happens at the beginning of the turn 58, the city checks if the built item is ready before or after that?

What is the exact order of things happening? (I saw the thread in the Strategy forum, but I admit I didn't pay it too much attention then)

Unfortunately I can't check it exactly with the simulator, because Panama starts with an empty foodbox, while in reality it was having some food (in the year when the simulation starts).

Edit: what if Leopold would road first? just to be sure. Forget it, we would lose the forest clearing bonus.

Last edited by Tiberius on 16-02-2003 at 15:10

	16-02-2003 18:43									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius If Leopold finishes the clearing in turn 58, when do the extra shields add to Panama? In the beginning of turn 58 or at the end of it; or at the beginning at turn 59? If it happens at the beginning of the turn 58, the city checks if the built item is ready before or after that? What is the exact order of things happening? (I saw the thread in the Strategy forum, but I admit I didn't pay it too much attention then)

Well, what I am sure of it that it is not before the turn 58 happens, so we will have a chance to change the production to Galley.

BTW, have a look at that thread... there is interesting info in there... most of what I've found out during my XLS orgies...

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Unfortunately I can't check it exactly with the simulator, because Panama starts with an empty foodbox, while in reality it was having some food (in the year when the simulation starts).

The simulation I ran was started fom exactly the situation we are having now, so I am pretty sure it is going to work... just that there is always the possibility of missing some detail - that's what happened to me when I did the first sim, copying wrong init values from the latest summary table...

	22-02-2003 13:51									#22
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Just to make sure that you know what I am thinking of...

I still strongly believe that we shall build the Great Library. We already are well behind in the tech race (just have a look at my chat with Trip - all teams are researching Tier 3 techs! confirmed yesterday while chatting with DeepO of GS) and if we miss the GLib, we will have to bleed to catch up, ending on the thin end of the rope every time. OTOH, with the Great Lib, we will need nothing from the others and we will be able to quietly continue our building race.

I no longer consider the Great Lighthouse the likely "second edge". The Pyramids are now the top candidate for the second wonder, that's for sure.

With all the teams having a contact and us hopefully making the contact over that narrow part of the ocean, nobody will be interested in the Great Lighthouse anymore. Which will serve us very well, as - if we manage to get The Pyramids - we will be able to use it to trigger our Golden Age (plus increase our naval superiority, adding +1 movement to our ships).

So, my current plan is to stick to our plan and do not get distracted by the Lux thing... BTW, do not get mislead by what you can hear and see in the public forum. They are planning to escape from the Bob continent and they still are working on that.

Let's make no contacts until we get the Great Library - let's make as many right afterwards, catching up on techs. Let's go for The Pyramids as the second wonder, saving the GLh for later (preferrably after switching to Republic).

	23-02-2003 02:54									#23
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Agreed, GLib will be best in the long run, and Pyramids are good and vital for a peaceful GA. I had hoped we wouldn't be too behind thanks to war, but so much for that...