14-02-2003 07:09									#1
	Any native American history experts out there? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I was digging through the editor and noticed the list of Great Leader names for the Iroquois:

1. Shenandoah
   
2. Cornplanter
   
3. Tecumseh
   
4. Red Cloud
   
5. Sitting Bull

Ok, I haven't a clue who Cornplanter is, but all the rest of those guys turn up in American history text books fairly regularly. Were they all really Iroquois? I had no idea. I still say the Sioux should've been in before the Iroquois, but I didn't know the Iroquois were that big of a deal.

But, uhm, what about Tecumseh? I thought he was Shawnee. Or were the Shawnee a clan or people of the Iroquois tribe? I can never keep tribes, clans and peoples straight (except for the Ogalala, Lakota and Dakota clans of the Sioux tribe).

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On an unrelated note, why do the Aztecs have a fast foot unit and the Iroquois don't? The Iroquois were at least somewhat nomadic, while the Aztecs all lived in permanent homes and cities. You'd expect a nomadic people to produce a fast foot unit before a non-nomadic civ, wouldn't you? On the other hand, they couldn't very well have given the Aztecs a mounted unit. I don't think they used horses at the height of their civilization.

If they ever get around to including the Sioux in a future expansion pack or game, they durned well better give the Sioux a fast foot unit. If any civ in the game (not just in North America) should have a fast foot unit, it oughtta be the Sioux. Particularly a fast foot unit that appears in the early Ancient era.

	14-02-2003 13:45									#2
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You should pm Ribannah on the issue - a compassionate defender of the Iroquois who has quite some knowledge about the leaders you're asking for.

	15-02-2003 01:53									#3
	Re: Any native American history experts out there? Inflate your Upload Space

Thanks, Wernazuma II.

quote: Originally posted by Underseer I was digging through the editor and noticed the list of Great Leader names for the Iroquois: Shenandoah Cornplanter Tecumseh Red Cloud Sitting Bull Ok, I haven't a clue who Cornplanter is, but all the rest of those guys turn up in American history text books fairly regularly. Were they all really Iroquois? I had no idea. But, uhm, what about Tecumseh? I thought he was Shawnee. Or were the Shawnee a clan or people of the Iroquois tribe? I can never keep tribes, clans and peoples straight (except for the Ogalala, Lakota and Dakota clans of the Sioux tribe).

1) Shenandoah means 'daughter of the moon'. There is a famous Iroquois lady singer with that name. Firaxis spelled the name wrong, it should be Skenandoah, (White Man's friend), an Oneida chief of the 18th century. His real name was Oskanondonha.
2) Cornplanter (half-Dutch) was an important Seneca leader during the American revolution. He is also known as Jan Abeel (Dutch), or Kiontwogky.
3) Tecumseh was indeed a Shawnee chief. He had nothing to do with the Iroquois and has no business being on their GL list.
4) Red Cloud was Sioux, who were enemies of the Iroquois. This is even worse.
5) Sitting Bull: same deal. NB: Lakota and Dakota are other names for the Sioux (all of these being nicknames though), the Og(a)lala is just one Sioux tribe.
A poor job by Firaxis. There are plenty of good choices for more than two real Iroquois Great Leaders, for instance: Joseph Brant (Tyendinaga), Canaqueese (Jan Smits), Sagoyewatha (Red Jacket), Canassatego (who advised the colonists to form a confederation after the League's example), Handsome Lake (the prophet, brother of Cornplanter), Garangula (a great warrior), or even the 20th century Deskaheh who represented the Iroquois at the League of Nations.

quote: On an unrelated note, why do the Aztecs have a fast foot unit and the Iroquois don't? The Iroquois were at least somewhat nomadic, while the Aztecs all lived in permanent homes and cities.

First of all, the Iroquois weren't nomadic, they built permanent settlements when they discovered a way to keep the soil fertile for many years. However, they never used horses in warfare, even though the horse had been introduced by the beginning of their Golden Age and they fought Sioux Horsemen.
A good UU for the Iroquois would be a Musketman that treats all squares as road. It reflects their Golden Age (they had the largest musketmen numbers in the entire region), and their ability to move very fast on foot in the forest.

quote: If they ever get around to including the Sioux in a future expansion pack or game, they durned well better give the Sioux a fast foot unit.

The Sioux, otoh, should get (a late version of) the Mounted Warrior.

quote: I still say the Sioux should've been in before the Iroquois, but I didn't know the Iroquois were that big of a deal.

The Sioux never did anything special, except being noted by their conquerers as fierce warriors, after they had been chased onto the plains by the Iroquois.
The Iroquois, however, made many important discoveries, built a large empire and were the number one power in North America for quite some time, until they got divided over the American independence war. They were never conquered, and are still an independent nation today.

	15-02-2003 02:05									#4
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Awesome

	15-02-2003 08:36									#5
	Re: Re: Any native American history experts out there? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Thanks, Wernazuma II. The Sioux never did anything special, except being noted by their conquerers as fierce warriors, after they had been chased onto the plains by the Iroquois.

Thanks so much for your detailed reply!

But uhm, they weren't exactly insignificant. First of all, they gave that arrogant Custer a much-needed spanking. More importantly (to me anyway), they were instrumental in the creation of the American Indian Movement, an organization that has had an impact to one degree or another on most of the indigenous folk on this continent.

Of course, I'm a little biased. I'm not Sioux or anything but my family is originally from that part of the country. Ya shoor!

Oh, and my bad about the nomadic thing. Sorry. Like most of the rest of the uninformed, unwashed masses, I tend to think of non-nomadic tribes as being predominantly from the southwest and northwest.

Unrelated trivia: around the time Phil Jackson (coach of the Bulls when Michael Jordan played there) was in high school in North Dakota, a Sioux basketball team won a state championship in spite of overwhelming odds. Years later as coach of the Bulls, Jackson had the Bulls perform Sioux rituals. Coincidence? I think not.

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More unrelated trivia: The Seminoles were never really conquered either. In fact the Seminole nation and the U.S. are technically still at war.

	15-02-2003 08:58									#6
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quote: Red Cloud was Sioux, who were enemies of the Iroquois. This is even worse.

The Sioux were enemies of the Iroquois?

I didn't think they were geographically close enough to be enemies...

	15-02-2003 17:10									#7
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Sioux and Iroquois were neighbours, with plenty of intermarriages (even Hiawatha in Longfellow's song had a Sioux girl ). But when the Iroquois expanded, the drove the Sioux out. There was a brief period when the Sioux had horses and the Iroquois were still without gunpowder that the Sioux kept their ground, but that didn't last long.
After the success of the American Revolution, the Iroquois lost the 'hunting grounds' they had conquered (but they never actually lived there) to the colonists. Some Iroquois were even forced to move to other areas, some went voluntarily. Later, the Sioux were forced to relocate a number of times by the Americans.
Their victory over Custer is remembered because it was an exception, during their entire after-contact history the Sioux were mostly on the wrong end of the stick. The Iroquois, on the other hand, were more than a match for the French, even when they (the French) allied themselves with the Hurons and the Algonquin.

Underseer, you are right about the Seminoles. The same holds for several other tribes. The independence of all of them is in fact recognized by American administration & law. Most of the native tribes, however, lost their independence at one point or another.

	17-02-2003 16:47									#8
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There was a saying: "The only good log cabins are made by Iroquois and Finns". The origin of this saying was propably the Iroquois and Finns...

	21-03-2003 09:16									#9
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Is there possibly something to be said for the fact that they chose the tribe which is actually a composition of five tribes, and drew the link that it's meant to represent Native American tribes as a whole, thereby legitimising the use of Red Cloud and Sitting Bull, as two glaring examples?

Of course I realise that there are massive differences between the tribes - my mother's only contribution to my childhood was a rigorous education regarding Native Americans - but I can also see how, due to the game's inability to recognise every important civilisation, something as seemingly simple as leaders crossing tribe borders to represent wouldn't be too big of a deal. Like, for example, I haven't checked the list of great leaders for England, but if it had a few Scots or Welsh in it, I doubt there'd be much of a fuss over it.