14-02-2003 14:06									#1
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I'm sure this has been done a thousand times but I would like some advice on some governments I've created. If you think these would be balanced or not. I'm new to modding and I also have some questions if one of you guys could point me to a FAQ or one of the threads that answers my questions.

OK here are the governments:

Theocracy
Forced Labour
Problematic Corruption
Draft Rate 2
Military Police 3
Support 4,4,8

I replaced monarchy's place on the tech tree with theocracy. I see theocracy as being an improved despotism. High corruption but having the 4 support for towns will make it great for waging war for small civs. You also get the ability for the hanging gardens wonder with the advance of theocracy.

Fascism
Forced Labour
Nuisance Corruption
Draft Rate 3
Military Police 6
Support 4,6,10

I see this as the ultimate industrial age military machine. Very high support and high military police. Corruption is a problem though. I replaced the communism advance since nationalism is a definite requirement of fascism. The fascism advance also gives you the ability to build the police station like communism used to.

I also changed some of the current governments

Republic stays the same

Because of the creation of Theocracy I bumped up the corruption of Monarchy to nuisance rather then problematic. This will make it sort of an inbetween Government I hope. Good to wage war when your empire gets a little bigger. I put it on the tech tree just after monotheism is created.

Communism I wasn't sure what to do with, it seems communual corruption is broken. Everytime the AI becomes communist it's civ goes down the crapper and I rarely chose communism since communual corruption just sucks. What I've done is give communism minimal corruption instead of communual. I hoped this would make it more viable and make it inbetween Fascism and Democracy for war/trade purpouses. Communism becomes available after the industrialization advance. I also got rid of veteran spies. For reasons below.

Democracy I got rid of the worker bonus and the immune to propaganda. You will see why below.

I wanted to create 2 modern age governments, governments that could be or could have been.

Corporate Tyranny (couldn't think of a better name)
Forced Labour
Minimal Corruption
Draft Rate 4
Military Police 6
Support 6,8,12
Veteran Spies

This government I see as being the ultimate war machine available in the modern era. It is created through massive electronic survielance of the population and is run by mega-corps. The corporate tyranny advance also gives the city improvment electronic survilance this reduces corruption (possible waste also) like a police station.

The other government I got screwed with as the editor was unable to make it. I wanted a social democracy, this would be a libral globalized market with consumers awakened to the ethical parts of buisness. Sort of the flip side of the tyranny above. Unfortunately it wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do. I wanted to make it have a +2 trade bonus and very high war weariness(among other things) the editor would not let me give the trade bonus or very high ww so my idea was screwed here. So instead I chose to experiment with something else.

Social Democracy
Pay Citizens
Worker rate of 3 (150%)
Communual Corruption
Draft Rate 1
Military Police 0
Support 0,0,0
Standard trade bonus
Immune to propaganda

Basically a socialist democracy. It just doesn't seem powerful enough in comparison to the corporate tyranny though and I can't think of a way to make it comparable while still keeping it a trade centered/anti-war government. I wanted to experiment with communual corruption in a non-war like government.

Also do you think with the short time left at the end of the game that it is worthwhile to include modern governments? Maybe making spaceship advances cost more or the parts for the spaceship cost more might make the modern age drag out longer? What do you guys think of all the governments? Balanced or no? Any way to make a trade bonus of +2 outside of the editor or very high war weariness so I can have my social democracy?

Now modding questions:

What's the best program to use to make the little icons for the government types? How the hell do you find out the X and Y coordinates to place the new government techs on the tech tree? How do you draw the lines for new techs? How do you change what the science advisor says when you move over a tech? Why did they make the editor such a limited peice of crap?

Any help or criticism would be great. I wanted to make this a discussion of game balance not politics.

So, no I don't support fascism. Yes I realize that stalin and hitler killed lots of people. Yes I realize to a libertarian a corporate tyranny could not exist since corporations are all run by saints. Ok that should hold off any political discussions I hope.

	14-02-2003 21:25									#2
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Replace "Communism" with "Bolshevik Socialism" or "Maosim" (as I did in the editor), as they're a lot more historically accurate. "Communism" simply never existed, but "Bolshevism" and "Maoism" did. Set them on "Communal" corruption, but give them the advantage of higher worker bonus and extra military police.

The name "Corporate Tyranny" (although it unfortunately exists ) sounds kind of awkward. How about renaming it "Corporate Republic"?

	15-02-2003 06:14									#3
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I don't think that Theocracy should have a great military advantage. It should rather have very low corruption since people in theocratic countries tend to be very law-abiding. Theocracy should also have a rate cap because of the stiff religious doctrines.

Fascism seems a bit too strong. It should be burdened with zero assimilation rate and resistance penalties since a fascist state does not accept ethnic minorities.

What is the real world equivalent of corporate tyranny?

	15-02-2003 08:37									#4
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quote: What is the real world equivalent of corporate tyranny?

Microsoft.

	15-02-2003 15:45									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Azeem Microsoft.

I'm going to change theocracy to city-states wish I could think of a better name for this, maybe confederacy but that seems too modern of a word for an ancient government. This would make more sense having the highest corruption of the two ancient era governments and also make sense with the four support for towns. The city state government would be like a loose confederacy of cities working together for the common good of all of them.

I orginally thought of making fascism have zero assimilation, I just may do this as it is realistic but I also don't want to cripple fascism. I figured fascism having a corruption rate of nuisance would make up for it's military advantages. I understand how corruption works but I'm not sure how much the diffrent corruption levels really effect corruption.

Yeah I think the suggestions about communism are good. The higher worker bonus and more military police maybe boost the military police to the same that fascism has to 6 this may offset the communual corruption. Since I removed democracy's worker bonus and immunity to propaganda it might make communism a viable alternative. I could make socialist democracy have a worker bonus of 200% along with the trade bonus and the communual corruption it would make it like a super combo of democracy and communism. Maybe also set it's war weariness to low so it could compete with corporate tyranny.

I did think of corporate republic but I didn't want to rip off CTP and I don't see this form of government really being a republic. Basically I see it as a country/civ where electronic survielance has become pervasive and private police forces/armies ect... are all used. The government would be helpless to make any decisions, it would be a tyranny. I still don't like the name corporate tyranny but republic doesn't really fit either.

I managed to get the x and y set for the diffrent advances on the tech tree so they are in the right places that was a huge pain in the butt. I still need to know how to make the lines between tech advances on the science advisor's screen. I also have a problem that when I go to the edit rules the whole box doesn't show up on my screen and since the box doesn't have minimize and maxamize options I can't move the box to see the bottom.

	15-02-2003 15:57									#6
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Oh, just to clarify. For the two modern governments there is no real world equivalent. These two governments are supposed to simulate governments that could be, will be or may have been. Not really future governments but ones that may have been around if things had went diffrently or that may come in the near future. Since the game has no modern day governments I thought it would be cool to have a couple. Unfortunately since the editor won't let you create one more era that's all I could do.

	15-02-2003 21:13									#7
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There was some German forum visitor here a while ago giving info about Democratic Socialism. According to what he says, their "Social Democracy" in Germany is not really a mix of "Communism" (which is really "Bolshevism" in the game) and "Democracy", but is really an actual Democracy but with government sponsored benefits for the citizens.

They really ought to allow you to set corruption by a numerical value in the editor.

	15-02-2003 21:28									#8
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Calling social democracy a mix between communism and democracy is like calling the American government a mix of fascism and anarchism.

	15-02-2003 21:35									#9
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Yeah our government in Canada is similar to Germany's government. This government I'm making for the game would be more socialist then Germany or Canada. I wouldn't call Canada or Germany socialist democracies I would call them representative democracies with a mixed economy, that's just my opinion. Most socialists in Canada either believe in a mixed economy or are evolutionary socialists that believe through slow changes in democracy the utopian ideal of marxism can be reached. I'm less concerned with the terms and things, I'll work more on that later anything can be justified if you use enough words. Look at this forum how many arguments on here about the governments/civs with people from all sides defending this attribute or that attribute with reasonable arguments.

I didn't mean to call socialist democracy literally a mix between communism and democracy in a political way. I meant that it's attributes in the game would be a mix of both communism and democracy's game attributes making it cool for a late game government and unique. Just like the corporate tyranny is like a souped up fascism in it's attributes. Both the socialist democracy and the corporate tyranny of my mod are non-existant governments today. I'll explain it in civ terms-I think if a civilization that exists today put some beakers into reasearching these government's techs it could be possible to have one of them today or in the near future. Please though guys I want to hear your opinion on how you think these governments will work in the game with the attributes I've assigned them, I'm not going for a political debate.

I'm more concerned about game balance at this point. I want all the governments to be usefull I don't want any of them to be like communism in Civ 3, a almost useless government in my opinion. It seems people around apolyton use republic for war or democracy for peace with a few favouring monarchy over republic in wartime and a very, very small amount using communism.

The makers of Civ 3 must be big time commie haters to have crippled it from what it was in Civ 2. Or maybe they just didn't realize how bad communual corruption would suck @## when put into practice. I know the AI whenr it goes into communism it's civ goes down the tubes. Communism really was cool in Civ 2. If you had a large empire you could switch to communism and wage a decent war but still maintain your tech. I used communism a lot in Civ 2 since I stopped using the fundie government because it made the game to easy.

After I get the governments worked out, I'm going to start on new units and altering the current units. Does anyone know if I make a mod for Civ 3 when I buy PTW will I be able to bring the mod over to PTW or will I have to do all the work over again?

Last edited by SirTweek on 15-02-2003 at 21:51

	16-02-2003 00:44									#10
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Fundamentalism was WAY OVERPOWERED in CivII! I overran enemy civs with HUGE armies of fanatics.

	16-02-2003 11:45									#11
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Yeah what I used to do was build up my tech and stay nice and peaceful in a democracy until I got bored of doing nothing but hitting next turn then I would switch to fundementalism and conquer the world.

	20-02-2003 14:55									#12
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OK here is the final governments I made I tested them out and the computer uses them but still seems to favour republic in the early times but then maybe I was just stuck near a bunch of wimpy civs that didn't want to fight.

Despotism, Anarchy, Republic remain the same.

Monarchy--Prerequisite polytheism (reduced the cost of polytheism slightly to get out of despotism faster)
Forced Labour
Problematic Corruption
Draft Rate 2
Military Police 3
Support 4,4,8
This was a good government for starting out and expanding with 4 support for towns.

Theocracy--Prerequisite theology
Pay citizens
Nuisance Corruption
Draft Rate 2
Military Police 3
Support 2,4,8
This was good to switch to once your civ gets bigger.

Fascism-Prerequisite nationalism (The Fascism advance also gives the police station improvement)
Forced Labour
Nuisance Corruption
Draft Rate 3
Military Police 4
Support 4,6,10
Workers 150%
Resistors are a greater problem and there is half the assimilation that other modern governments have.
Still not sure if this is overpowered but I think with the resistance penalties and the nuisance corruption it is handicapped enough.

Communism-Prerequisite industialization
Forced Labour
Communual Corruption
Draft Rate 3
Military Police 6
Support 2,4,8
Workers 150%
Elite Spies
I'm hoping the advantages here make it comparable to fascism and democracy as an option.

Democracy I removed the immunity to propaganda everything else is the same.

The two modern governments---

Social Democracy
Pay Citizens
Minimal Corruption
Draft Rate 2
Military Police 0
Support 0,0,0
Workers 200%
Immune to propaganda, standard trade bonus, high war weariness
I ditched the idea of a communistic democratic government and instead went with something like a socialist democracy would be today. Draft rate is one higher the democracy, faster workers and immune to propaganda.

Statism--Prerequisite computers (The statism advance also gives the electronic survielence improvment which reduces corruption like a police station)
Forced Labour
Minimal Corruption
Draft Rate 4
Military Police 4
Support 4,6,10
Workers 150%
Veteran Spies
Resistors are stronger against this government and assimilation is half that of social democracy.
This is a government that could be if fascism survived it's like fascism but with a modern economy and modern methods to keep control of the population.

So those of you have responded earlier what do you think of the changes it seems to work out ok even though I'm thinking of reducing Statism's draft rate to 3 since it's main bonus over fascism is the increase to minimal for corruption. I might cripple republic a bit maybe put it's corruption down to problematic since the computers seems to love the republic.

	20-02-2003 19:25									#13
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Ive made a simmilar mod,

I used "Commercialism" (name-wise) as opposed to corporate tyranny, however my premise for the gov was differant than yours.

I made it as an uber-capitalist society with a canibalistic market that leaves droves starving in the streets while 4 or 5 at the top have everything. I gave paid labour, dont pay improvment upkeep, no free military, middle-of-the-road corruption, and high war-weariness (the poor dont like being sent off to die for the rich)


-Tim Smith
tim@jlc.net

	21-02-2003 12:02									#14
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Well, really the game needs the governments modded as it is unmodded it is completly unbalanced. Almost all my games on any difficulty I only use democracy or republic. War weariness is a joke, communual corruption sucks and the unit supports for the other governments are nothing in comparison to what a republic and democracy can support with the trade bonus. I changed my idea of corporate tyranny to statism-a modern day fascism. Hey your description of commercialism sounds like where I live now

	23-02-2003 09:07									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer Calling social democracy a mix between communism and democracy is like calling the American government a mix of fascism and anarchism.

... Your point ?

"We" (USA) have relentlessly pursued the lowest common denominator of social interaction as an adjunct to mindless and over-indulgent consumerism --THAT's the corporate tyranny. The once grand American Republic now has de facto economic fascism (recall that fascism also refers to a state-directed, symbiotic relationship with large scale corporate entities) and incipient anarchy in the creeping realization that we don't get to vote on the really important stuff, and when we try to misbegottenly mimic a parliamentary system ("misbegotten" because we have a two-party SYSTEM, period) people who care about strip mining wind up throwing presidential elections to the oil industries.

So maybe no anarchy, but unaddressed disenfranchisement, which maybe even wupping Iraq's posterior won't make go away.

... But, seriously, folks, ours is the corporate tyranny. Mr. Enron runs free, **** Cheney (I'm VERY amused that the board-software sensors part of the Veep's name as an obscenity ...) won't fess up to having the countries energy policy dictated by oil execs -- and the real national anthem should be Paul Simon's already decades old "American Tune"!

@!#$!!*(#!,

Oz

	27-02-2003 02:58									#16
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Off Topic:

Oz,

I notice that you like to casually label things as "Fascist", yet you are complaining that people don't have enough say in the government. Remember that Weimar Germany had one of the most (if not the most) democratic constituions in history. The people went out and they voted for Hitler. That is what makes Fascism Fascism. It is "Totalitarian Democracy", voted into office. The Majority rules completely, as happens in pure democracy. The Nazis were had huge amounts of popular support. When the people spoke, they spoke unabashedly for dictatorship.

Disenfranchisement is not utter and total evil. In fact, thats how things operate in real life. The majority of American People don't vote. That is good. They don't have a strong enough interest in voting/ the political process to comple them to act. Why force them to vote if they are completely uninformed or disintereted? The result would most likely be some sort of MTV type demogogue, the pure child of mindless consumerism. I personally think that the uniformed should not be forced to vote. As to the Nader situation, he did not have enough support to win. He also recognized the inherent danger in his run for office. He himself recognized that he would probably swing the election into Bush's favor, yet he ran anyway. Third parties can, and have, successfully emerged in U.S. history (for instance The Republicans) However, the greens are too much of a fringe group to have a successful party of their own, and too unimportant for the Dems. to co-opt them a la William Jennings Bryan. Its not the system's fault that Bush won the election, its the voters fault.

Don't throw around totalitarian references too lighty. All they do is take away from their seriousness. America is in no way close to the Totaliarianism of Stalin or Hitler.

On Topic: I like your governments Tweek.

	27-02-2003 08:57									#17
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According to a dictionary definition of fascism, fascism is a government which exalts the nation and stands for autocratic and often militaristic government. The US currently is somewhat of a mix of militarism, oligarchy, and aristocracy with a small quart of representative democracy. No more than half of the voting age population vote and politicians, and especially more upper-class lobbyists, don't seem to care that the majority of the voting age citizens do not vote. They especially do not care much for minority ethnic groups either. Since wealthy lobbyists, who contribute much to election campaigns, can easily sway the decisions of the government more than a group of lower middle class or poor citizens and that the upper class (who seem to think that they're more important than we common folk from working-class families), America has a bit of an aristocracy in it. Also, ever notice that those who run for high offices tend to come from well-to-do families? The US government also promotes militarism and indirectly promotes hatred (and a touch of disguised racism) towards any alleged "enemy".

In my opinion, it's more of an aristocratic republic than a democracy.

OK, enough of my political talk. I've already had to write this sort of thing for a college essay so I don't want to bore all of you to death. Back to the topic of the mod-

Hmm... Forced Labor for Monarchy? That's about right in many cases (such as Emperor Qin sending hundreds of thousands to their deaths to build that Great Wall).

As for "Communism", you can remove that (if you haven't already) and replace it with "Bolshevik Socialism" or "Maoism" (since a real "communism" never existed). That would be more historically accurate. They should retain the same stats as "communism" but have a slightly higher military police.

BTW, what modern equivalent does "Statism" have?

	27-02-2003 10:47									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff Off Topic: Oz, I notice that you like to casually label things as "Fascist", yet you are complaining that people don't have enough say in the government. Remember that Weimar Germany had one of the most (if not the most) democratic constituions in history. The people went out and they voted for Hitler. That is what makes Fascism Fascism. It is "Totalitarian Democracy", voted into office.

Ah, but I never label lightly

It is a long-noted quirk that liberal democracy allows for its own destruction, a la Hitler's "democratic" victory. I must note that I am a great admirer of Turkish democracy which, IIRC, specifically empowers the military to intervene whenever demagogery threatens to undermine democracy. Not that this is without its own inherent dangers, of course ...

In Turkey's case, the "threat" is Islamic fundamentalism; in America's case, it is consumerism -- or, rather, the replacement of the internalized, national idenity of the citizen with the right to consume (and successfully accrue further wealth to further consume) over such concerns as privacy and freedom of expression.

Of course, compared to Europe, we are a people who have uniquely replaced history with mythology -- whoops! ... or did Weimar Germany do so as well?

As for 3rd parties -- the fundamental economic structure of the nation has changed since Lincoln became the first Republican president. With the change in economic structure has of course come, hand-in-hand, significant social structure. Part of this socio-economic polarization has resulted in an embedded two-party system which has -- at least since Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose Party -- defied reconstruction.

Insofar as "fascism" is concerned / defined, it is two things -- the extreme of right-wing authoritarianism, and an economic structure of state-directed capitalism, concentrating wealth as the ruling "elite" sees fit.

To imagine that America is without a ruling elite is naivete at its highest; to imagine that the current ruling elite is without its own economic interests is absurd -- or are you unaware that Bechtel et. al. are already bidding on projects for post-war reconstruction of Iraq? Or that Karzai has sat on the board of oil companies (sorry, off hand I cannot recall which)? Or that Afghanistan is the shortest route for Caspian oil to reach
the sea via pipeline?

quote: Disenfranchisement is not utter and total evil. In fact, thats how things operate in real life.

Here we can only agree to disagree -- maybe. "VOLUNTARY disenfranchisement" begs the question why people don't care how they are ruled.

That people don't vote because they can't point to Canada let alone Iraq on a map -- and have their retirement plans intimately tied up in hopes of winning some sort of lottery -- is cause for alarm. Or a new flavor of coke. Or another "reform" to dismantle something which costs money, no matter the benefits to the polity as a whole.

quote: The majority of American People don't vote [...] They don't have a strong enough interest in voting/ the political process to comple them to act. Why force them to vote if they are completely uninformed or disintereted? The result would most likely be some sort of MTV type demogogue, the pure child of mindless consumerism.

... You mean, just like we have now??

quote: Its not the system's fault that Bush won the election, its the voters fault.

Here I must disagree -- the mess of the 2000 election was a situation which the Founding Fathers did not forsee, and has nothing to do with the electoral college per se, but with a Supreme Court reversing years of consistent decisions in favor of State's Rights to suddenly hamstring ... Oh, never mind ...

There IS actually a Civ gamepoint for all this: America is the greatest power the world has ever known, with about the most apathetic and/or uninformed elecorate Democracy has ever known.

Hence I suggest a new Civ government type: Corporate Republic. Very high efficiency; moderately happy people; very low war tolerance -- unlike those participants in Democracy and war who have now commonly come to be known as "the greatest generation".

quote: Don't throw around totalitarian references too lighty. All they do is take away from their seriousness. America is in no way close to the Totaliarianism of Stalin or Hitler.

I must painfully remind you that current interpretation of law in this country allows a citizen to be declared an "enemy" combatant who can tried and executed, in secret, without due process including attorney/client privilege, under the authority of a military tribunal.

That we don't know whether this has happened or not is, IMHO, sufficient cause for alarm.


Yours Happily Remembering When "Civilized" Meant Something, Or So I Thought ...

Oz

	04-03-2003 20:55									#19
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I would have to disagree that the US is run by the "racist elitist upper class". What about affermative action programs, sexual harrasment officers, ect... The US does not persecute minorties if anything the government gives them special status and protections. I think most people don't vote out of apathy because they figure they will get screwed either way.

The nazis may have had a democratic constitution but even before the war they didn't have the huge amount of support that people think they did. The nazis purged political enemies. I have some friends that fled from nazi germany since they didn't support hitler. They are all germans. One of my friends, her father was executed and his land was stolen. She fled to Canada with her mother before the war.

I propose the McDick's republic where the people are fed fast food to make them fat, lazy and subservient. Even if you try to avoid McDick's for your entire life once you have kids they will be screaming to go there since advertisments make out McDick's to be a gourmet food establishment for kids. With the civ advance of 'super/biggie' size meals, all war weariness is gone as your people are to fat and lazy to protest war.

I tested out the governments. They work good except the computer will not pick communism over fascism. The computer still sometimes picks democracy over fascism/communism for war since democracy is still the most powerful government form. I'm going to change the unit support to 5:5:9 for communism hopefully the computer will pick it more then, and I'll get rid of the spy bonus. I think just from my testing the computer holds the amount of units it can support as the highest factor in choosing governments and of course with democracy you can support the most units out of all the governments even with my changes.

The early governments worked great the computer usually went with republic yet some stayed in monarchy for a while even after getting the republic advance, I think because of the 4 unit support for towns. Then when theocracy came along the computer player's were split between theocracy and monarchy for war.

For statism I couldn't think of a modern equivalent to it, even though one may exist. Statism is supposed to be a offshoot of fascism that didn't come to being since fascism was defeated. Think of it as a modern fascism with even more tight controls because of technological advances and with a modern economy. Statism is militaristic with extreme nationalism like fascism. This could possibly fit some modern 'communist' countries or dictatorships.

	04-03-2003 21:57									#20
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quote: Originally posted by SirTweek For statism I couldn't think of a modern equivalent to it, even though one may exist. Statism is supposed to be a offshoot of fascism that didn't come to being since fascism was defeated. Think of it as a modern fascism with even more tight controls because of technological advances and with a modern economy. Statism is militaristic with extreme nationalism like fascism. This could possibly fit some modern 'communist' countries or dictatorships.

Perhaps "Authoritarianism"? -- Hitler's brand of fascism was the extreme; Mussolini's, Franco's et. al. were arguably different. This would also encompass many nominally democratic 3rd world, present-day countries. Definition might be "state-directed capitalism" with the military ever-ready to ensure that voting etc. doesn't stray too far from the party line. Stats could mix Republic and Fascism (e.g., Fascism but paid labor).

As for all the other sundry diatribes, phillippics, militant screeds, etc. -- my spleen is well vented; thank you all

-Oz

	05-03-2003 08:05									#21
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quote: "state-directed capitalism"

That would be similar to China's situation. China's government in the Mao era exalted the state above the people. The prestige of the nation came before the needs of the people. Very similar to the definition of "fascism". How about renaming "Statism" with "Maoism"?