14-02-2003 17:24									#1
	Preliminary Freight info Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We have 33 freight (again ) Only salt is undemanded atm so we have 12 demanded freights this time (see breakdowns below)

I'm gonna have to try a few more calculations to see if anything else might get freed up, or see what sort of delivery bonuses we might get to various cities, but have a couple observations so far

Leon looks like it could free up silk by delivering something (salt or gems). Avila demands gems, so could get a nice delivery for it (diff cont, 1 has superhighways) and would likely free up gold for delivery, though would lose a trade route from Rusicade. Leon would likely lose a +6 trade route to Cardiff - not much loss there

Right now, there are 2 demanders of Oil, but only on the same island that all suppliers of Oil are on - based on a couple tests with Goto (am i allowed to do that?) I'm not sure any routes will give the railroad bonus, even with all cities being connected by railroad... Possibly a Cordoba-Valencia route since both direct routes are completely railroaded, although I couldn't get a food freight to go from Cordoba all 5 spaces to Valencia (kept getting hung up between the hills and wheat I used a food freight since we have more than enough to build CfC and still have some idle, and figured the island is railroaded enough that it wouldn't try and play hide and seek in an unroaded forest or hills out in left field... All tests with the food freight did at least stay on the railroad at all times


Breakdown: 33 Freight
Food (1+7+4+1+2+3+1)= 19 food
Oil (1+1+2+1)= 5 Oil
Cloth (1+1)= 2 Cloth
Salt (1+1)= 2 Salt
Wine (1) = 1 Wine
Gold (1+1)=2 gold
Silk (1) = 1 Silk
Gems (1+1)= 2 Gems

Breakdown by City, Type
CAPITOL (Oil, Wine, Gold, Foodx6)
Saragossa (Oil)
Pamplona (Oil, Foodx5)
Cordoba (Oil, Gold)
Valencia (Cloth, Food)
WhereItsAt town (Cloth, Foodx3)
Leon (Salt, Gems, Foodx2)
shady trees (Salt, Food)
Cadiz (Silk)
Panama Canal (Gems)
Avila (Food)

Breakdown by type and city
Food 19 (CAPITOLx6, Pamplonax5, WhereItsAt townx3, Leonx2, Valencia, shady trees, Avila)
Oil 4 (CAPITOL, Saragossa, Pamplona, Cordoba)
Cloth (Valencia, WhereItsAt town)
Salt (Leon, shady trees)
Wine (CAPITOL)
Gold (CAPITOL, Cordoba)
Silk (Cadiz)
Gems (Leon, Panama Canal)

Physical Locations of freight:

Capitol:
1 food
around Seville:
10 (7 food, oil, cloth, salt)
6 (4 food, oil, wine)
1 food
2 oil, gold
Cordoba:
1 oil
Pamplona:
2 food
Obladi:
6 (3 food, cloth, salt)
Avila:
3 (Food, silk, gems)
Freeport:
1 gems
Ocean en route to Greater Naples Metro Area
1 gold (Cordoba)



I'll see what else I can come up with later

	14-02-2003 18:10									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

after thinking on it, it probably was a bad decision to try and test for railroad bonus - only did 2 - and neither resulted in any loss in movement. However it could have (even if it was a unit not being used and could have gotten anywhere it needed 2 by next turn anyway), and that sets a bad precedent.

No more Goto testing

	17-02-2003 01:17									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Just a cautionary thought. I hope you aren't actually "playing the game" to determine these things. It's admittedly a gray area, but it is easy to go too far in that direction. We've tried to keep any explorations we've made in the game in the current year, and even that makes me a bit concerned.

I'm just saying let's *all* be careful where we go with our Ministerial work .

	17-02-2003 01:54									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We've established a long time ago a policy of no playing ahead. Railroad adds a tough of grey, since you can move units around on the railroad and then put them back in the same place with no movement loss, effectively leaving the game unplayed.

Until this turn, I hadn't even done that. In an effort to better utilize Samson's formulas for freight delivery, i started to test on the largely railroaded main island for optimal path (provides a bonus). After 2 attempts, and some thought, I decided that was a bad decision and therefore ceased and desisted.

Now I'm back to using 'v' (view pieces on the view menu)and then the arrow keys if i need to check a path or a distance, thereby not touching any units

	17-02-2003 09:46									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

My philosophy is that you should be able to do your job without ever touching a single unit. Your various advisors should inform you with what you need. I think their is a utility to estimate caravan payoffs in the Civ2 strategy thread.

	17-02-2003 10:20									#6
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 My philosophy is that you should be able to do your job without ever touching a single unit. Your various advisors should inform you with what you need.

And i plan not to touch any more units as per described above

quote: I think their is a utility to estimate caravan payoffs in the Civ2 strategy thread.

there is, but it was made in MS Excel, and virtually all of the formulas seem to be incompatible with my version of MS Works... (which was something i complained in jest about elsewhere in this forum )

Efforts to encode the formulas myself seem to fail when i try and generalize it for a matrix of cities, and i'm not quite sure which variables are the problem... It would be a bit easier in Excel as you can hide info on multiple sheets...

	17-02-2003 18:58									#7
	Suffering from ads?

All that I do that could be called questionable is load up the save, turn science to 0, and fire any einsteins... that gives the base number of beakers per next tech.

Hopefully that's permitted... it's a pretty standard procedure when trying to get exactly x number of turns per tech with no beaker wastage

	17-02-2003 22:06									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

That's what I meant guys, and I'm glad for your responses. As City-Planner, I move Workers around to see what happens, check on diferent completion turns for different structures, etc, but I do not cross that year line or move units out of the cities.

Just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page.

	18-02-2003 02:09									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

STYOM-

I was wondering how you know the base beaker rate. On my own games, I find myself cheating to find the total number of beakers required for the next tech.

With your method, and then fiddling with the science rate and setting a few einsteins, you could fix the beakers required without ever touching the cheat menu!

	18-02-2003 02:22									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 STYOM- I was wondering how you know the base beaker rate. On my own games, I find myself cheating to find the total number of beakers required for the next tech. With your method, and then fiddling with the science rate and setting a few einsteins, you could fix the beakers required without ever touching the cheat menu!

maybe I don't want to know this, but it seems to me that using the cheat menu would be a whole lot more complicated than just setting total # of beakers produced to 0?

Just don't forget to scan F5 to make sure there aren't any cities with 'phantom' science... For some reason (probably dealing with floating point arithmatic), sometimes cities will produce extra beakers dispite 0% science and no einsteins - and they aren't always the large ones either

	18-02-2003 02:39									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by SCG Just don't forget to scan F5 to make sure there aren't any cities with 'phantom' science... For some reason (probably dealing with floating point arithmatic), sometimes cities will produce extra beakers dispite 0% science and no einsteins - and they aren't always the large ones either

I think if there was a phantom science thing happening, the beakers per tech number would look so radically different from what I was expecting that I'd notice

I mean, 1 extra beaker would cut the turns/tech in half if we were running at 0 science/0 einsteins...

	18-02-2003 13:48									#12
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man turn science to 0, and fire any einsteins... that gives the base number of beakers per next tech.

Good tip! (OK I know it's obvious when you think about it, but I didn't spot it.)

Is there a way of telling exactly how many beakers you already have?

RJM at Sleepers

	18-02-2003 20:17									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers Good tip! (OK I know it's obvious when you think about it, but I didn't spot it.) Is there a way of telling exactly how many beakers you already have?

I don't think so, unfortunately.

When your first city is also the SSC, there is one advantage - that city will often be the one that provides the beakers to get you to a new tech. Since any excess beakers don't carry over to the next tech, the next turn will start with 0 beakers in the box. From there, you can calculate how many you need, and keep tabs on Freight delivery, etc... so you can get to the next tech without any wastage.

The downside to your first city being the SSC is that often a lot of beakers can be wasted that way - because they don't carry over to the next tech. Having your 5th city as the SSC, say, means that if the SSC gives you a new tech, the first 4 cities will add their beaker production to the next tech... giving you a bit of a head start.

In terms of calculating how many beakers you have in the box... various people have tried to figure out a way to do that, and I don't recall any real successes. Estimation, or utilties like cool ruler, seem the only solution.

	19-02-2003 12:52									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man The downside to your first city being the SSC is that often a lot of beakers can be wasted that way - because they don't carry over to the next tech.

That was why I was hoping there was some way of working out the number of beakers already accumulated.

In the early landing comparison game, I was micromanaging to get extra corn or shields rather than wasted beakers. That was fine while I could count the number of beakers on the science advisors screen. But pretty quickly they all blur together.

BTW I presume that all cities are processed before normal game play starts. So if you have one or more big freight deliveries available and the beaker box is nearly complete, it's worth waiting a turn for delivery in order not to waste them. Is that right ?

RJM at Sleepers

	20-02-2003 01:22									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

rjmatsleepers:

Yep, that is the right way to go, assuming no changes in the demanded commodities.

As for accumulated beakers, all you really need is the beakers to the next tech.

Your trade advisor will give you the beakers per turn produced by your empire.

Fiddle with the tax rates until you get 1 tech per turn.

Drop the science rate 10% to get the marginal 2 techs per turn.

Hire some einsteins until you cross the threshold to one tech per turn.

Check your trade advisor, and this should give you the number of beakers needed for the size of the box, within a few beakers.

You'll then be able to ballpark the number of beakers accumulated by looking at the length, and estimating. Granted, this is not precise, but it's an educated guess.

	20-02-2003 11:49									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 As for accumulated beakers, all you really need is the beakers to the next tech. ... Check your trade advisor, and this should give you the number of beakers needed for the size of the box, within a few beakers. You'll then be able to ballpark the number of beakers accumulated by looking at the length, and estimating. Granted, this is not precise, but it's an educated guess.

Another good tip - thanks.

It sounds a bit messy, but presumably you don't need to do it too often - only when you're close to discovering a technology. Most of the time freight deliveries can simply proceed.

RJM at Sleepers

	21-02-2003 02:12									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The way I do it is set my science at whatever level I like that's about 2-3 turns/tech. Each turn I deliver enough Freight to fill the beaker box. That way I get the new tech from the first city to report next turn, and the rest of my cities fill the beaker box about halfway... then I fill it the rest of the way with Freight... etc. 1 tech per turn is usually enough.

You can get more than 1 tech per turn, but the way to do it is to fill the beaker box via Freight, then have your cities generate enough beakers to get 1 or more techs per turn. Freight can't get you more than 1 tech/turn, but if you have a lot of high beaker producing cities, you can get 2 or even 3 (so I've heard) per turn from city beaker production.

	21-02-2003 03:49									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm currently running a 254 city game. I can sustain 2 techs/turn which will be increasing as I deliver freights.

This is with 20 percent science, mind you. Freights will be more for cranking up taxes and allowing me to lower luxuries from 50 percent to keep my cities celebrating.