14-02-2003 20:24									#1
	Illegal to boo the marseillaise???? Tired of ads?

BBC reports

" * It is now a criminal offence to insult the French flag or national anthem. Booing the Marseillaise now carries the risk of a fine of 7,500 euros and six months in prison."



Here in the US, despite the Patriot act, and the european impression that Bush has clamped down on civil liberties, it is still legal to boo during the national anthem, and proposed amendment to ban flag burning has not gotten anywhere.

Considering how Europeans claim that the US is the home of mindless nationalism/super-patriotism, and they have moved beyond nationalism, I find the above very difficult to understand.

Your comments please.

	14-02-2003 20:27									#2
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The'll be trouble if England plays France at Football. The fans are bad enough when its legal.

	14-02-2003 20:29									#3
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BOOOOOOO!!!

*makes sure never to make a trip to France again*

	14-02-2003 20:33									#4
	Re: Illegal to boo the marseillaise???? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark proposed amendment to ban flag burning has not gotten anywhere.

It not that America didn't try.
The French succeed were America failed?

	14-02-2003 20:33									#5
	Re: Illegal to boo the marseillaise???? Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark BBC reports " * It is now a criminal offence to insult the French flag or national anthem. Booing the Marseillaise now carries the risk of a fine of 7,500 euros and six months in prison." Here in the US, despite the Patriot act, and the european impression that Bush has clamped down on civil liberties, it is still legal to boo during the national anthem, and proposed amendment to ban flag burning has not gotten anywhere. Considering how Europeans claim that the US is the home of mindless nationalism/super-patriotism, and they have moved beyond nationalism, I find the above very difficult to understand. Your comments please.

Can I have a link to the whole story.

	14-02-2003 20:37									#6
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Who said you were the only ones with a conservative administration ?

Our "great" administration also brought :
- spread use of rubber bullets by the police against petty criminality
- prisons for 13 years-olds (and lowering the limit to 10 years is in the talks)
- police beating strikers
... And that's all the things on top of my head, in regard to reactionary security policy.

During the finale of the French Football Cup, some Corsican supporters booed the Marseillaise. Our newly elected president jumped on the occasion to get some cheap popularity, and left the his spectator seat, in full anger.
This was a bit of a commotion in France, and it brought the light on this small incident. The government was more than pleased to forego its right-winged agenda.

	14-02-2003 20:37									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz It not that America didn't try. The French succeed were America failed?

"america tried"????? Some americans proposed it, others rejected it. Is everything that one group of americans propose something "america tired" or canadians, of french or whatver??? In that sense america "tried" national health insurance. France "tried " communism, etc.

	14-02-2003 20:39									#8
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No, the Americans tried to do it. Therefore they are evil. Whether or not France actually did it is immaterial.

	14-02-2003 20:40									#9
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France tried fighting in ww2

	14-02-2003 20:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Who said you were the only ones with a conservative administration ? Our "great" administration also brought : - spread use of rubber bullets by the police against petty criminality - prisons for 13 years-olds (and lowering the limit to 10 years is in the talks) - police beating strikers ... And that's all the things on top of my head, in regard to reactionary security policy. During the finale of the French Football Cup, some Corsican supporters booed the Marseillaise. Our newly elected president jumped on the occasion to get some cheap popularity, and left the his spectator seat, in full anger. This was a bit of a commotion in France, and it brought the light on this small incident. The government was more than pleased to forego its right-winged agenda.

Here in america being conservative doesnt necessarily mean being against civil liberties. Some 'conservatives" were against the USA Patriot Act., and i suspect amny more would be agaisnt any pushing it much further, certainly anything as stupid as banning booing during the national anthem. Perhaps these conservatives would really be called "liberales" in europe, pro-business, pro-military, but also pro-civil liberty.

	14-02-2003 20:41									#11
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The difference between European propoganda and reality is that the Euros always say America is abridging free speech but in Europe they actually do it.

	14-02-2003 20:43									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The difference between European propoganda and reality is that the Euros always say America is abridging free speech but in Europe they actually do it.

Stupid generalisation of european countries of the day

	14-02-2003 20:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Stupid generalisation of european countries of the day

Roight!

	14-02-2003 20:47									#14
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Well he has to counter the stupid generalization of American for the day .

	14-02-2003 20:48									#15
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The thing which gets up the nose of otherwise pro-americans such as myslef is the constany banging on about how free americans are compared to the rest of the world.

The US is a free place to live as are the countries of Europe. It is different in the US but not better.

You do not get locked up or otherwise prevented from saying, or printing what you think in either the US or Europe.

There are many faults with European countries, their freedom of speach is not one of them

	14-02-2003 20:49									#16
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Stupid generalisation of european countries of the day

I can come up with 10x as many stupid generalizations of Americans by Europeans. I'm just giving a little back in return.

	14-02-2003 20:49									#17
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Free speech isn't considered untouchable in the French constitution, as well as the German fundamental law.*

In France, it is illegal to encourage murder or racial hate. Is is now illegal to boo the Marseillaise (you can expect this law will never be used, except on some rare occurences when our Police Minister wants to look good, but in these occurences, planty of people will be caught by the police)

In Germany, it is forbidden to create a nazi party or a communist party (the comunists do not use this name, as do the nazis)

There has been an overall lowering of civil liberties in France since Sept. 11. Mostly since our left winged government lost the elections, which gave all power to the right wing. I am glad you disagree with all this crap, too.

	14-02-2003 20:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Is everything that one group of americans propose something "america tired"

They tried to get a constutional amendment to criminalize burning the American Flag, Right?

This motion would have had to have support from
elected representatives to get anywhere, much less
to a vote. Right?

	14-02-2003 20:54									#19
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger The US is a free place to live as are the countries of Europe. It is different in the US but not better. You do not get locked up or otherwise prevented from saying, or printing what you think in either the US or Europe.

You're of course right but I made my sarcastic remark to counter the large numbers of Euros who've made "The sky is falling" type comments about the U.S. being a facist dictatorship. If you don't know what I'm talking about then check out the thread on the nonexistent Patriat Act 2.

	14-02-2003 20:55									#20
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I live in england, you don't have to go far to hear stupid comments about america

	14-02-2003 20:57									#21
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger The thing which gets up the nose of otherwise pro-americans such as myslef is the constany banging on about how free americans are compared to the rest of the world. The US is a free place to live as are the countries of Europe. It is different in the US but not better. You do not get locked up or otherwise prevented from saying, or printing what you think in either the US or Europe. There are many faults with European countries, their freedom of speach is not one of them

I certainly did not mean to imply that Freedom of speech is endangered in Europe generally, or even in France in particular (I doubt occasionally locking up a Corsican for making a scene at a football match will have any effect on political debate in France) I was thinking more in terms of the propaganda emanating out of much of the European elite implying that the US is home of a raging cowboy patriotism, which Europeans have moved past due to their experiences of war, and which makes them much wiser judges of international affairs than we are. We have seen a fair amount of that on this forum.
I know this charecterization of America, and even of the current administration to be false.

As I hope is clear, I am no Europhobe, and would like to see American policy in areas like health care become more like europes (well more like Germany's than Britain's, but you get the point)

	14-02-2003 21:01									#22
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Illegal to boo the marseillaise???? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ozz They tried to get a constutional amendment to criminalize burning the American Flag, Right? This motion would have had to have support from elected representatives to get anywhere, much less to a vote. Right?

It has never even gotten to the point of voting. There were just a few poeple trying to get a petetion signed but they never got enough signatures.

	14-02-2003 21:04									#23
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Actually, there is a trend in bith France and Germany to strengthen the national ties. This had begun in Germany some years ago when Schröder came into power, and promoted a campaign for Germans to lose their WW2 complex. The aim was for the Germans not to feel ashamed of their country in all circumstances anymore.

In France, Chirac thinks one of his missions os to renew the national pride, because one of the reasons explaining Le Pen's success would be an identity crisis. The whole diplomatic barking re Iraq takes this factor into account, as well as the banning of Marseillaise-booing. Chirac know he has 5 years with nearly absolute power, so he tries to enter in history books and in the French's collective imagination as a new De Gaulle (who is a national hero)

	14-02-2003 21:26									#24
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Free speech isn't considered untouchable in the French constitution

And it is in the US. That's the basis of the thought that France and Germany have less freedom of speech than the US. It's obvious.

	14-02-2003 21:35									#25
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Absolutely.

Therere different kinds of civil rights. Some are the forte of the US, some are more the forte of France (for example, we have an extremely good law regarding the protection of data, which is still one of the most progressive ones in the world 30 years after)

	14-02-2003 21:47									#26
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Can someone please provide a link. I did a search on the BBC and can't find any mention.

OK found it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2759823.stm

	14-02-2003 21:55									#27
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FRANCE != EUROPE

	14-02-2003 21:55									#28
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yes, and if a country outside the US does something you don't like, you grant yourself the right to either get rid of the governement or to start a full scale war ... Sometimes i really wonder whether your personal freedom applies only to americans ...

	14-02-2003 22:01									#29
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Sometimes i really wonder whether your personal freedom applies only to americans ...

And on to Belgium. Bomb them!

FRANCE != EUROPE

We can thank our lucky stars!

	14-02-2003 22:13									#30
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quote: if a country outside the US does something you don't like, you grant yourself the right to either get rid of the governement or to start a full scale war ...

duh.... that is how all wars are started.

quote: Sometimes i really wonder whether your personal freedom applies only to americans ...

Of course!!! Our intention is to attempt to apply them to everyone. Personal freedoms, IMO and the opinion of my government, is that everyone deserves certain rights. When other ppl attempt to take or supress these rights from/on anyone (even the minority) then yes we have something to say about it.

No one has the right to tell anyone else how to live... That is exactly what the evil dictators of the world do to their ppl. Yeah, I know you are thinking, "we'll that is what is America is doing"...right? Wrong...

America is giving those ppl under this single person the right to chose their leader, religion, occupation, and mode of expression. If someone really wants to live without the right to choose then... We'll then there you may be right.