15-02-2003 06:29									#1
	Breaking the Game Open Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

In the "Are we playing too conservatively?" thread, Theseus asked a question I've been tossing around in my own mind: "How will we win? What will break the game open for us?" We need to answer that question so we'll be following a coherent strategy rather than just making individual choices in isolation.

Obviously, we have no way of knowing exactly how the game will unfold. So rather than pick one single "game-breaking" strategy, we need something along the lines of a decision tree that lets us choose among multiple potentially game-breaking strategies depending on what happens elsewhere. And we need the flexibility to exploit any of our chosen strategies or move on to the next, depending on what the situation looks like when the time comes for a decision.

I'm not going to go into my own thoughts on the issue at the moment because I'm interested in seeing what other people's thoughts are. I'm sure I'll have a lot to say later on, but for the moment, the floor is all yours. What do you see as our opportunities to break the game open? What will make the opportunities you envision so effective? And how do we set ourselves up to be ready if the opportunities materialize while still maintaining flexibility if they don't work out?

Nathan

	15-02-2003 06:50									#2
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Possible Scenario: The Warrior's Gambit.

We share a continent with Vox. Things are friendly at the moment. That's nice, but can it be expected to remain that way for the entire game? Should it remain that way for the entire game? Suppose the following...

We get our 15 cities established with enough workers for all required tasks. We build Barracks in most if not all cities and begin the construction of large quantities of Horse and Sword. ~ 12 of each.

We sweep North and claim the entire continent for ourselves sometime in the late Ancient or early Medieval. This gives us a large island all to ourselves. We gain multiple cities which are still within the corruption reducing effects of the capitol.

From our now secure base we develop our new cities while we watch for opportunities on the continent. We identify the leader and wait for that civ to get embroiled in a war. At that moment we land with massive forces and contribute to the destruction of the civ most likely to challenge us for ultimate victory while at the same time gaining a suitable base for a Forbidden Palace and 'New Provinces' for our empire.

From that point we could build or conquer our way to victory.

	15-02-2003 07:09									#3
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I also consider a continental GS hegemony a desired objective, and i hardly see Vox as useful long term buddies, but that might change- if a real good opportunity arises on the continent, we might want to be embroiled as well- before, or even instead messing with Vox. I also think that by the time we think we're ready for northern conquest it will be early medieval at best, since i suspect research development to slow down its rate of increase, but not that much.

But, i also envision another scenario- finding a big enough isle for a FP, we take over Vox, while using the isle, or whatever site we find appropriate as a base of operations for Viking style tactical raids on the mainland- to weaken the leading teams and generaly wreck havoc, while playing smart diplomaticaly, we can pull this off without damaging our worldwide reputation, and maintaining our supremecy.

	15-02-2003 07:28									#4
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I think the most important question we need to ask is "how could I beat us", defend against the answers we come up with, and take advantage of any other team's negligence in answering the same question as relates to themselves.

	15-02-2003 07:35									#5
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I think the question is premature until we get a good idea of what's going on on the main continent. Once we get a feel for the "world diplomatic stage", we should be able to figure out some coherent strategies (and defenses against others).


Dominae

	15-02-2003 07:40									#6
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Dominae- that's absolutely right, just look at this thread as Gathering Storm's brain storming (pun intended ).

	15-02-2003 07:54									#7
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Ah, but our "brain storms" and "proposals" seem to have a funny way of becoming policy around here...


Dominae

	15-02-2003 13:32									#8
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I know it's earlier than would be ideal, but the question of how we're likely to want to break the game open has a major bearing on (1) whether to go for a wonder or focus on building up our military and (2) what wonder to go for if we do go for one. If we're thinking in terms of probably fighting a war in the near future, for example, it would be hard for the Pyramids to be as useful to us as an extra 15-20 WCs.

	15-02-2003 20:59									#9
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Again, until we get all contacts on the mainland and their terriotory/world maps, planning an attack on anyone but Vox is premature. Now if Vox is our target, we've got some discussing to do.


Dominae

	15-02-2003 22:52									#10
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Right ho.

For our attack I would say use mounted units. That will cancel out the advantage of the Immortals.

Other then that, just build like 30 of them in a stack and sweep Vox off of the continent.

	16-02-2003 01:22									#11
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Thanks for putting this thread up, Nathan. In the other posts I was focused on what would *not* be a game-breaker...

While I think we all agree it's a little early to determine what will be game-breaker, and therefore we should be playing a "balanced" game (with the question of how much military that means still being discussed), I can think of one thing that will give us a HUUUGE advantage, and is more or less under our control:

Our GA.

Post-republic, and assuming we've REXed fairly well, we can become a monster.

Now, we can trigger the GA with the Pyramids, but what if we miss it?

On the other hand, going to war with Vox...

	16-02-2003 01:43									#12
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One (minor) military disadvantage for getting a GA too soon: we can't build WC anymore, if we have HBR, we are going to need to build horsies, if knights are present, we need to build them instead.

But don't let that one side-comment distract you: I think that timing of our GA is indeed going to be critical. If we are going to take on GoW, it might be a good idea to time our GA before they are able to build riders, and start theirs.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 01:49									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

WCs upgrade directly to knights, not to horsemen, and are available any time horsemen are. We could always pillage our iron roads to get back the ability to build WCs and horsemen if we need to do more upgrading, but WC or horseman upgrades to knights are horribly expensive if you don't have Leo's.

Nathan

	16-02-2003 01:53									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree... but does this means that for us Leo is definately going to be a game breaker? If we can scratch that one from the list of possibilities, it is one less discussion to worry about.

Thanks for correcting me on the WC-horse upgrade, I wasn't very sure of what I said.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 02:16									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Leo's could be about the most valuable thing possible for us if we use it right, assuming we can't work things to essentially lock up the game before then. The only bad part is that if we make our move during that era, two of our rivals - GoW and ND - will have knight-replacement UUs for us to fight and golden ages to build lots of the things.

Nathan

	16-02-2003 02:20									#16
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Nobody said we couldn't use Leo for the WC to Cavalry upgrades anymore... set the slider to 100% tax for a while, pillage the road to saltpeter, and build WCs as crazy.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 02:41									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Nathan, how do you think we could lock the game up with galleys and ancient era units?

	16-02-2003 03:06									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Nathan, how do you think we could lock the game up with galleys and ancient era units?

If Lux, ND, and GoW weaken themselves enough fighting (and slow down their research enough in the process), a joint Storm/Voxian strike force could finish them off. We and Vox would both be republics in golden ages, while they would have only normal despotic production. We and Vox both have UUs that give us more power for our production than anything they could counter with would have. And we and Vox woud both have vastly greater incomes to upgrade warriors to swordsmen/immortals.

That would give Gathering Storm both the biggest portion of our own continent and the biggest portion of the main continent, and would eliminate all three civs with UUs that could cause us serious headaches later. And even if we don't get a leader, we could found a new city on the other continent, pile in settlers and workers to boost it to size 12 (while reducing all our other cities below that size), and do a palace jump. I won't say we'd be theoretically unstoppable after that if the rest of the world would ally agaisnt us, but I suspect that Vox would rather go for a sure second place as our ally than risk the consequences of betraying us - especially if they don't fight their part of the war any more efficiently than I've been hearing people say they expect they would.

I don't know how good the odds are that such a scenario will actually develop, but I'm inclined to think it could make a lot of sense to be ready for it if it does.

Nathan

	16-02-2003 03:14									#19
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Ah, methinks Nathan is being seduced by the power of the Dark Side...

MWAHAHAHAHA!!!

	16-02-2003 03:28									#20
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Theseus, when I'm playing Egypt, I need very little seduction, just a good opening.