19-02-2003 02:01									#391
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Go ahead and call people names but it doesn't help your cause and it doesn't make you look any better. The truth is in a democracy the best and most productive way to change the government's policies is to vote for people who have policies similar to your own. Colonial India wasn't a democracy so off course protests were they only thing which could effect change. Women's sufferage had a lot of rallies but in the end it was a democratic vote which made the changes reality.

Oh God..... "Women's sufferage"?

How do people who have no access to mass media and little money make themselves heard? They protest, that's what they do. They also lobby and do other things - both to appeal to the government and make the case to other citizens.

If you really think that voting is the best way to change the government's policies what happens when both parties have essentially the same policy that most people don't want, and when the government wants to do things everyone really hates when no election is imminent.

The facts are that public opinion in Europe is overwhelmingly against the war. There is no denying this fact. Nothwithstanding the opinions of their own citizens the leaders of all but two of these countries are pressing on regardless. Hence people are putting the government on notice by protesting - effectively saying - stop, or you've lost my vote. The idea is to compel the government to change its policy or in the case of Blair, its leader.

There, that's how protests work. And they do work.

	19-02-2003 02:03									#392
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There were almost a dozen different attempts to negotiate a peaceful exit from Kuwait by Iraq, other Arab states, the USSR, Europe, etc. The US refused them all. The US did everything it could to ensure that it could fight a war, sabotaging every peaceful effort. That war had little to do with Kuwait, and everything to do with proving American military power in the waning days of the USSR. The whole point of that war was to say to the world, "See how mighty we are, we are in control now."

Che: After the war General Swarzkoff (spell?) wrote a book on the subject which I read sometime back in 1994. Storm'n Norman said the reason the soviet peace intiative was shot down was because it allowed the Iraqis to keep control of hte desputed oil fields and didn't provide for an complete and unconditional withdrawal back to the pre-war border. Bush, Major, & all were very specific that it was complete with drawal to the pre-war border or nothing.

Saddam figured he could break the coalition by playing little games and then withdrawing from most of Kuwait while keeping the best oil fields. I'd say Bush Sr. had a pretty honest and straight forward policy.

	19-02-2003 02:05									#393
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Besides, democracy can be gotten around, as seen in our 2000 election. All you need to do is break the laws.

	19-02-2003 02:06									#394
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'd say Bush Sr. had a pretty honest and straight forward policy.

You war-mongers are pretty damned gullable when it comes to our government, aren't you?

	19-02-2003 02:08									#395
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quote: Besides, democracy can be gotten around, as seen in our 2000 election. All you need to do is break the laws.

Yeah, as the Democrats did in 2000 (and just recently in the South Dakota 2002 Senate Race).

	19-02-2003 02:08									#396
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Agathon: I said working through the democratic process has a higher success rate then protesting not that protesting had never worked. Respond to what I actually said and not what you wish I said.

	19-02-2003 02:21									#397
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Besides, democracy can be gotten around, as seen in our 2000 election. All you need to do is break the laws. Yeah, as the Democrats did in 2000 (and just recently in the South Dakota 2002 Senate Race).

I don't believe I named any specific parties. Both parties in this country are guilty of trying to get around the electorate. The Democrats are just as responsible for the fiasco in Florida as the Republicans. If Gore's people hadn't tried to limit the scope of the recount to just those counties where he thought he'd do best, then Republican vote tampering wouldn't have provided Bush with the margin of victory. Both of them screwed us. And yet the American people keep bending over and spreading their cheeks.

	19-02-2003 02:26									#398
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Agathon: I said working through the democratic process has a higher success rate then protesting not that protesting had never worked. Respond to what I actually said and not what you wish I said.

events gained by:
Protesting                                    Voting
Independence
unpropertied white men vote
women vote
Black people vote
ending slavery
ending Vietnam War



just to name a few

	19-02-2003 02:43									#399
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quote: I don't believe I named any specific parties.

Just getting a shot in .

quote: The Democrats are just as responsible for the fiasco in Florida as the Republicans.

Don't forget given cigarettes to homeless people, all the shenanigans in Chicago every year, and the illegal keeping the St. Louis polls open for hours after everywhere else was closed.

quote: Independence

There is a difference between protesting and revolution, che.

quote: Black people vote

quote: ending slavery

Now if you said ending Jim Crow... You remember that war that was started when a man named Lincoln was elected by people VOTING right? .

	19-02-2003 02:49									#400
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Protesting Independence unpropertied white men vote women vote Black people vote ending slavery ending Vietnam War

Since when do wars count as protesting?

	19-02-2003 02:51									#401
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Hey, Che. Perhaps you have information on the demonstrations that others do not. Do you know who organized them? Even though I personally disagree with their positions, I was impressed by the degree of oranization it took to pull off this worldwide event. I hardly believe this was just concerned people worldwide, chatting on the internet, who suddenly decided to protest on Feb. 15.

	19-02-2003 06:58									#402
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Independence There is a difference between protesting and revolution, che.

Revolution is the ultimate form of protest. The people throw out their government and install a new one.

quote: quote: Black people vote ending slavery Now if you said ending Jim Crow... You remember that war that was started when a man named Lincoln was elected by people VOTING right? .

There was quite a bit of protest against slavery, leading up to the war. The protest resulted in an election, which sparked a war. But if there had been no protests, the Republican party wouldn't have had a platform.

Ned, the organizations are varied by country. All I can say for sure is that there are four national organizations in the US who are cooperating and coordinating very closely, two of whom are lead by communist groups. Both through the communists' normal international contacts (most of our organizations are multinational) as well as the contacts that have been developing during the "anti-globalization" movement (I told you it was internationalist) it's not all that hard to do coordination like having the whole world protest on a single weekend. Then it's just up to local groups to try and get things going. Plus, it's a lot easier to keep informed with the internet. I wish we had it last time around.

Like I keep telling people, the left may have its differences, but when something big comes up, we overlook them for the sake of the cause. The biggest problem the movement is facing right now is a barage of red-baiting coming from the right-wing of the movement. There have been a number of very negative articles in the liberal/prgressive press about how the movement is being "hijacked" by the communists (without acknowledging that it was the communists who first organizaed the anti-war movement--in October, there were only two national groups).

Just this last week, Rabbi Lerner, who is associated with the liberal Jewish magazine Tikkun, claimed that he was being censored by ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism), which is led by the Trotskyist group, Workers World. He claims he was invited to speak in San Francisco by United For Peace, and that Answer vetoed him because he was critical of their stance on Israel. Liberals jumped on the bandwagon to condemn ANSWER and bash the contribution that the left has been making, without bothering to check the facts. United For Peace denies that it ever invited Rabbi Lerner and ANSWER says the topic of his speaking never came up and that if UFP had put him forward, they couldn't have vetoed him (nor would they if they could). I know many fine comrades in WW, and I highly doubt they'd censor anyone. Even my anti-Leninist comrade in the Socialist Party, David McReynolds, former member of the War Resitors League, and one of the leaders of the Vietnam Anti-War movement (and also our 1980 and 1996 SP candidate for President) stood up for ANSWER. Now, the right picks up on the liberals red-baiting and is saying it too. (Never trust a liberal, they'll always stab you in the back.)

	19-02-2003 07:11									#403
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Che, thanks. And would you agree that the groups who put this together are primarily motivated to stop American imperialism rather than by any love for Saddam?

	19-02-2003 07:22									#404
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quote: Revolution is the ultimate form of protest. The people throw out their government and install a new one.

I don't think revolution and protest are nearly that similar. Protest is part of the government process (which is why I think the original statement is more true than you believe). Revolution is the overthrow of that process.

I tend to believe that Protest and Voting are more related than Protest and Revolution.

quote: There was quite a bit of protest against slavery, leading up to the war. The protest resulted in an election, which sparked a war. But if there had been no protests, the Republican party wouldn't have had a platform.

Untrue, the Northern Whigs were for a very long time anti-slavery, and it wasn't because of any protests. That is just how they were, and that is what caused the split in the party.

And the protest against slavery wasn't nearly that large. A few people that wrote treatises and ran an underground railraod do not really amount to a substantial protest. It was not nearly another Boston Tea Party .

	19-02-2003 07:24									#405
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No one loves Saddam. In fact, we'd all pretty much agree that we'd like to see him just disappear, along with his top staff. I would not, however, say that we're united by a desire to stop US imperialism, though it's certainly one factor. I think the main factor uniting the movement is a hatred of war and the belief that if the world really tried, they could disarm Iraq without the use of military force.

Despite the US' muntions getting more and more accurate, there will still be an extremely high cost in civilian life. Tens of thousands died in the war against Yugoslavia, and that was just a bombing campaign. We're talking about sending people into highly populated cities, where civilians are bound to be hurt. Even those who flee will be at risk of exposure and disease.

I should note that the two other national anti-war networks are led by religious groups.

	19-02-2003 07:25									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It was not nearly another Boston Tea Party .

Harpers Ferry?

	19-02-2003 07:43									#407
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That was a revolt by a crazy man. A guy that slaughtered hundreds in Kansas/Nebraska is not what an entire movement should be judged on. The majority of the movement was newspapers by certain individuals.

I don't think you can call that opposition to slavery, 'protest' as we are using it in this sense. If that were the case, the Republican 'revolution' of 1994 was a protest (I don't believe that either).

	19-02-2003 07:49									#408
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That was a revolt by a crazy man.

Don't believe Southern propaganda. Read what he said and wrote. The man was perfectly lucid. He was considered crazy because he was a white man willing to lay down his life so that Black men might be free.

Nor did he slaughter hundreds. The "massacre" that he led was of less than a dozen people. The only event that came close to killing hundreds in "Bloody Kansas" was the bushwackers' raid into Lawrence, KA, a town popul;ated by free staters.

	19-02-2003 08:46									#409
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Well then, Che, do you count the Pope among your leaders? He certainly is trying to get this thing resolved without the use of force.

It would really have been interesting to see this frail old man join the march in Rome.

	19-02-2003 08:54									#410
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well then, Che, do you count the Pope among your leaders? He certainly is trying to get this thing resolved without the use of force.

He's not my leader, but I'm sure many anti-war Catholics look to him for leadership. Outside the US, where the Pope's opinion counts, it's probably a very important factor in the anti-war movement. American Catholics tend to be more independently minded, which I think is a good thing. I'd rather someone be opposed to the war because they think it's wrong rather than because they were told to be opposed. I don't think people should be told what to think, even if it benefits my side.

	19-02-2003 16:42									#411
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quote: The facts are that public opinion in Europe is overwhelmingly against the war. There is no denying this fact. Nothwithstanding the opinions of their own citizens the leaders of all but two of these countries are pressing on regardless. Hence people are putting the government on notice by protesting - effectively saying - stop, or you've lost my vote. The idea is to compel the government to change its policy or in the case of Blair, its leader.

In Europe there's a lot of anti-war propaganda,
take The Netherlands, overhere 80% of the journalists vote left.

The leftish parties SP and GroenLinks (socialists and green-socialists) are spreading anti-war folders, propaganda and all that.

We hardly hear *anything* from the pro-war front.

Besides that take the usual anti-america feeling people have and the 'default' hate people have against war. (which is a good thing)

if you take that all in concideration, it's pure logic that people say "NO" to war at first sight.
That might change if they're informed right about the concequences of not going to war etc.
But that just doesn't happen. Well, it does happen, but not in the big-mouthing way the left parties push their stuff through our troats.

I have talked with much people who got not much of an idea about the situation in the middle east.
They were against a war. When I talked with them for a while, and I informed them about reasons why to go to war, and why not going to war might lead to more casualties etc. etc. all of them changed their minds to a more neutral point of view, like "Try peace as long as possible, but use war if all peacefull roads are blocked"

Pherhaps it's true that in the USA the situation is exactly the other way, and the pro-war propaganda machine is bigger. Overhere in Europe it's not.

I can't help it, but I concider my fellow europeans dumb and bad-informed. Not all of them, but much of them.

I have respect for well-informed rational people I disagree with.
Unfortunately I hardly meet them.

	19-02-2003 17:38									#412
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To the person mentioning "permits to demonstrate" somewhere above, I have to point out that only in unfree states like the USA and Iraq does one have to have a permit to demonstrate. Demonstrating is a constitutional right where I come from and nobody needs a ****ing permit to do it.

As for that stupid disarmament argument, why the hell didn't the USA try to do what they're doing now in 1998 when Iraq booted the weapons inspectors? Why wait 4 years? And why didn't Bush do that early in 2001, if you see it as a specific Republican policy? But noo, first we get 11/9/2001, then we take Afghanistan, then, seeing how strong we are, go for the big bucks in Iraq and opt for more after that (axis of evil, Korea, etc)...

There was no economic crisis in 1998 either...

	19-02-2003 19:37									#413
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quote: Originally posted by axi Demonstrating is a constitutional right where I come from and nobody needs a ****ing permit to do it.

That must be fun when marches are staged down busy streets. I hope you keep the number of the nearest hospital handy.

	20-02-2003 00:30									#414
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy When I talked with them for a while, and I informed them about reasons why to go to war, and why not going to war might lead to more casualties etc.

Such a good Christian war monger. I'll be your patron would be so proud of you . . . if he existed. The motto of the "true Christian," don't let your beliefs get in the way of your blood-lust.

	20-02-2003 00:32									#415
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quote: Originally posted by axi why the hell didn't the USA try to do what they're doing now in 1998 when Iraq booted the weapons inspectors?

Iraq didn't boot all the inspectors, just the Americans, who were spying on them above and beyond searching for WoMD. The UN pulled the rest of them out a month later, just before Clinton's "Wag the Dog," bombing campagin.

	20-02-2003 01:45									#416
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Such a good Christian war monger. I'll be your patron would be so proud of you . . . if he existed. The motto of the "true Christian," don't let your beliefs get in the way of your blood-lust.

nice way of reasoning, if someone thinks war is the only left over option, he's a war monger.

oh well. I could wait for that. when people run out of arguments the name-calling starts

	20-02-2003 03:06									#417
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Cybershy:

Why do you believe the war with Iraq is justified?

You also have to consider those lives that will be lost due to the bombing in Iraq, the so-called collateral damage. Is it worth going to war to topple Saddam, if it means thousands will die?

	20-02-2003 03:25									#418
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quote: Originally posted by axi As for that stupid disarmament argument, why the hell didn't the USA try to do what they're doing now in 1998 when Iraq booted the weapons inspectors?

Because there was a different President, and a different foreign policy. Also, there wasn't a 9/11 to make us more aware of how real the threat of terrorism is. Had 3000 people died in a 1997 terrorist attack, and we had a right-wing president when the inspectors were kicked out in 1998, we may well have had a regime change then.

God, as if nothing can change in the world after 5 years.

	20-02-2003 04:21									#419
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Agathon: I said working through the democratic process has a higher success rate then protesting not that protesting had never worked. Respond to what I actually said and not what you wish I said.

And a third time for Zeus the Liberator....

Protesting can be part of the democratic process.

Protests influence both the government and public opinion. You are trying to force an exclusive distinction where none exists.

	20-02-2003 07:14									#420
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He's not my leader, but I'm sure many anti-war Catholics look to him for leadership. Outside the US, where the Pope's opinion counts, it's probably a very important factor in the anti-war movement. American Catholics tend to be more independently minded, which I think is a good thing. I'd rather someone be opposed to the war because they think it's wrong rather than because they were told to be opposed. I don't think people should be told what to think, even if it benefits my side.

Che, I do not salute the pope and say, "Yes Sir!" when he speaks. But this pope is someone very special. He is a great man who holds a great office.

When he speaks, I listen.

I can only wish him well in getting Saddam to cooperate with the UN to avoid war.