15-02-2003 18:05									#1
	A new review of MoO Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Thought I'd bring this to your attention... any piece of information to ease the wait is more than welcome.

Now, as someone who has closely followed the game's development since day one, I'm relieved, and frankly amazed, that the good folks at QSi have managed to stick adamantly to the original design elements without making major compromises along the way (save for IFP's, which were a bad idea to begin with ) BUT (there's always a "but"), it appears diplomacy still falls short of the ambitious goals they intended to reach:

"The computer controlled players generally act very smart, and coldly calculate each action. When relating to their human counter-parts, however, they can react very strangely. Some alliances can quickly deteriorate into aggression and sometimes players will receive angry and confusing messages from an ally ambassador for little or no reason. This can be very frustrating when all the time invested in building an ally's trust is dashed by a single random event."

Great. The most hated flaw of all 4X'es, and MoO2 in particular, has been carried over. AGAIN. I hate to say it, but precisely this type of AI behaviour can totally destroy the singleplayer experience. *If* it rears its ugly head in MoO3 with the same alarming regularity as it did in its predecessor, I'll definitely be holding out for a patch.

	15-02-2003 19:06									#2
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I'm really surprised this comes up again and again.

I'm happy if the AI acts like a real player, trying to win the game, instead of simulating a loyal subordinate. It's just too easy to buy friends with lots of gifts. The only question for me is if those diplomatic shifts are in fact _random_ (that would suck) or if they occur when the AI thinks it can exploit a weakness and get an advantage by backstabbing you (that would be cool).

	15-02-2003 19:44									#3
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i cant acess the Review

	15-02-2003 20:23									#4
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quote: Originally posted by darcy I'm really surprised this comes up again and again. I'm happy if the AI acts like a real player, trying to win the game, instead of simulating a loyal subordinate.

Why do you see the only alternative as "simulting a loyal subordinate"?


An AI ought to simulate an empire, and act apropriately. It shouldn't just play out a sort of "powergaming" strategy every time, like in Civ3 where every civ just expands like mad and then often acts agressively towards the human player for no logical reason. It breaks the atmosphere of the game, and ruins it for those who don't "play to win".

	15-02-2003 20:26									#5
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just like the US...
;=)
Nations dont act rationally everytime.

	15-02-2003 21:25									#6
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quote: Why do you see the only alternative as "simulting a loyal subordinate"?

Because AIs are already less skilled than humans in these kind of games. Artificially restricting them with some loyalty/race relation variables makes them even worse players, which means they will _always_ be manipulated by humans to serve their interests. It's ok if you don't play to win, but the AIs should, especially since they're supposed to compete in MP when humans drop out of the game.

Hmm, making the perfect AI is really impossible as long as people have so many conflicting expectations towards them. Customizable AI scripts, now that would be a great thing.

	15-02-2003 21:56									#7
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If the AI is better than SMAC's diplomacy wise, I'll be happy.

Besides, like darcy said, if the AI goes berserk on you, then so what? It is obviously responding to the growing threat that is YOU and its neighbors, and a sudden change in diplomatic relationship is not unthinkable.

I mean, look at the U.N. today!

	15-02-2003 22:20									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Main_Brain i cant acess the Review

Try this.

http://www.activereviews.com/moo3/moo3.html

	15-02-2003 23:00									#9
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Thnx wildman :=)

// i like the Pic with the Guardian in it :=)

Last edited by Main_Brain on 15-02-2003 at 23:05

	15-02-2003 23:08									#10
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So it's odd to me that this came up as an entirely different answer in the other review by B Brenesal on IGN. He was very pointedly specific about how good the AI was in most cases. PA said it can be frustrating.

I wonder more and more whether this is a function of how much you've played it and gotten used to the diplomacy system.

It was a decent review. I would have liked more depth overall, but there was nothing glaringly bad about it. Nice screenshots, for sure.

	15-02-2003 23:11									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Perhaps they are playing on different difficulty levels too. Who the heck knows. Who even cares anymore? Reviewers these days can't agree on nuthin.. just like the Dems and Republicans.

	15-02-2003 23:31									#12
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quote: just like the US... ;=) Nations dont act rationally everytime.

You must have them confused with Germany, France and Belgium.

	15-02-2003 23:40									#13
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Also remember, some species dislike other species in MoO3. The Saurians have a natural hate towards the Ichthytosians for an example. It is possible though, to form peace treaties and trade pacts with the two species, but the Saurians will still have that cautious eye on the Ichthytosians. So if a Ichthytosian race does something that a Saurian race doesn't like (say, by not agreeing to the demands of the Saurians or maybe espionage/sabotage against the Saurians) then of course they could just declare war on the Ichthytosian race and try to eliminate them.

	16-02-2003 01:22									#14
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Yes, remember the 'so called artificial numbers' reflect on even the PLAYER. Your people won't be happy with you (Read: Unrest) if you are trying to maintain good relations with a race they don't like. It is possible those ratings will improve over time. But it goes down to the waiting game of "Is the unrest worth it" and hoping the other side thinks it is too.

I know the beta testersa nd developers have said multiple times that there IS ALWAYS a reason the computer goes to war with you. One thread over on the IG forums today even goes so far as to say that yes: You are poorly defended and a good target / We're Saurians, you're Ichthyosians are both good enough reasons. So there are some trivial matters that can lead to war.

Plus racial tendencies. You have a weak military and are trying to be on good relations with the Saurians? You're not strong. What use are you as an ally? You're an easy target, thats what you're most useful for.

So apparently there are reasons, and with practice you will learn what they are (eXperience anyone? ). It is just that they don't TELL you what the reason is so it seems out of the blue.

This said, even the BTs mentioned they would like to see that matter addressed in a patch - having them tell you why they are going to war.

	16-02-2003 02:30									#15
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quote: Your people won't be happy with you (Read: Unrest) if you are trying to maintain good relations with a race they don't like.

Wow, really? That would be a cool feature. I've read so much about the various stages of development now that I'm completely ignorant about what's actually in, rumoured to be in, got cut or was never in in the first place....

I'll better keep my mouth shut until I've actually played the real thing.

	16-02-2003 10:27									#16
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Seriously this game had better be good!

It was way over schedule....more than a year! Damn the chaos of software development, damn it all to hell! the u.s should follow suit with european software companies and formalize their processes. but anyways, back to masterbating...

	18-02-2003 01:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Main_Brain just like the US... ;=) Nations dont act rationally everytime.

*bzzztttt*

WRONG!

You may want to ammend your statement to "just like every nation does" when talking about how ALL countries will do what is best for themselves first and help others second.

No country run by humans is immune to this "trait."

BTW, the political comment is out-of-place in a forum talking about a computer game, go to "GENERAL discussion" or "off-topic" forums for that.

	18-02-2003 02:00									#18
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Please please, we could discuss all the things wrong with the US (and there is an awful long list), or we can look at things that matter, moo3.

So how should other AI react? This is a big question. Are they players in the game, or are they actual civilizations? Do they try to act normal, or do they seek to win?

It seems that in most games, the AI's primary goal is to not let others win, but not necessarily try to win themselves. Perhaps the difficulty scale should make a split here. A completely competent computer may not want to win, while an AI that couldn't stick a square peg in a square hole is desperately trying to win. Perhaps another just wants the player to die, while another wants no one to win.

A strategy game with this kind of personality choices, instead of just clear cut difficulty levels would be most enjoyable IMHO.

	18-02-2003 05:04									#19
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Its hard to discuss how an AI should act without relating to real life examples. It is, after all, trying to emulate the sort of political double dealing that we see in life. Hard to bring in present day examples without upsetting people though....we've been there and done all that in the last thread about the AI.