15-02-2003 19:52									#1
	Science Ministry's Observations, Recommendations, and Poll. Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It's 1880.

A few people have made the comment that it would be nice to get to 2 turns/tech. Well, we're close...

We produce 1233 beakers/turn. The next tech requires 2698 beakers - to get 2 turns/tech we need 116 additional beakers per turn (for this tech, anyway - beaker cost increases with each new tech you acquire, thus my argument against stealing techs which are currently unnecessary).

We can get Rocketry in 2 turns most simply by delivering Freights for around 250 g next turn - that should push us far enough to get Rocketry in 1882.

The other obvious alternative is to build Universities in St. Pratski, Avila, Seville and Valencia - that approach, once complete, would produce 134 more beakers/turn, based on current numbers for those cities.

The Science Ministry prefers the Freight approach for a few reasons:

- we already have some commodity freights to deliver, while the Universities would require a change in the build queues.

- the Universities probably would not be ready for a few turns, while Freights can be delivered more or less immediately.

- Freights are more flexible. If we really wanted, we could accelerate to 1 tech/turn by delivering a LOT of Freight (incrementally rushbuying demanded goods). On the other hand, eventually the extra beakers from the Universities won't be enough to produce 1 tech/2 turns, as the beaker cost per tech increases.

- Finally, the Freight approach will also produce extra cash, allowing us to rushbuy other needed improvements/units. The ideal would be to use the cash to rushbuy more Freights, thus creating a self-sustaining process - and generating a LOT of science and cash.

Please discuss, and vote in the poll:

	15-02-2003 20:37									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

does SETI put a research facility in every city, or just the ones with universities?

	15-02-2003 20:42									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I thought it was just those with Universities, but I've been corrected in another thread here

SETI definitely acts as a Research Lab in all cities, even those without Universities(or Libraries). However, building a Uni still adds 50% science, IIRC.

	15-02-2003 20:44									#4
	Put an end to popups!

I'd love to see more things incrementally produced. Freight especially, but just about anything moves the build queue along. I'm not sure how feasible that would be though. Our Illustrious President doesn't seem to have much enthusiasm for round-by-round micromanagement. Without incremental buying on the intervening rounds (and optimizing workers for each build project or celebration), that makes things like univerities more viable, not to mention leaving the luxury rate at 30% and building CfC so the pres can just let more cities grow, indirectly producing more Science

	15-02-2003 20:54									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

SETI increases every city's science. so with SETI already, building a university in cities with a library, it would increase the base by 50% - which would be a 25% net increase over what is produced right now

Example - city produces 50 beakers base.
SETI = 50% = 25 beakers
Library = 50% = 25 beakers
--------------
total = 100 beakers.
adding a university would increase an additional 25 beakers, or a 25% net bonus over current production
Total = 125 beakers

	15-02-2003 21:04									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Incrementally producing Caravans/Freight is pretty easy - it's only 50 shields. Incrementally buying other things becomes a hassle. If we were in Fundy, it'd be easy to rush 20 shield Fanatics and then our 30+ shield cities would finish in 1 turn.

Otherwise I guess we could do a rushed Spy and then let a 20+ shield city finish the Freight. If the Freight provides a 180+ g payoff, it pays for itself, if my memory serves. For less shield-rich cities, we could let the city spend a turn adding 1 or more shields to the build box, then next turn rush to Spy, buy 10 more shields to Engineer, buy 10 more to Freight - takes 2 turns but might save a bit of cash.

At the very least our bigger cities could produce 1 Freight/2 turns, either naturally or by incremental rushbuying. That could give us 4-8 Freights/turn, enough to get the science flowing faster.

	15-02-2003 21:08									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by SCG SETI increases every city's science. so with SETI already, building a university in cities with a library, it would increase the base by 50% - which would be a 25% net increase over what is produced right now Example - city produces 50 beakers base. SETI = 50% = 25 beakers Library = 50% = 25 beakers -------------- total = 100 beakers. adding a university would increase an additional 25 beakers, or a 25% net bonus over current production Total = 125 beakers

Are you sure the increase applies only to base science? I thought Lib/Univ/Lab were 50% cumulative bonus.

e.g. 50 beakers
Library boosts to 75 (50 x1.5)
University+Library boosts to 112 (75 x 1.5)
Lab+Uni+Library boosts to 168 (112 x 1.5)

or am I mistaken

	15-02-2003 21:28									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm sure - actual tests are consistant with the description under research labs in the civilopedia - having all 3 increase the base by 150%. Its also consistant with the concept of base trade arrows used for freight deliveries (even if i've not got it working yet) - now if i just had a decent spreadsheet program instead of that misnomer MS Works...

	15-02-2003 21:40									#9
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by SCG I'm sure - actual tests are consistant with the description under research labs in the civilopedia - having all 3 increase the base by 150%. Its also consistant with the concept of base trade arrows used for freight deliveries (even if i've not got it working yet) - now if i just had a decent spreadsheet program instead of that misnomer MS Works...

OK then

All the more reason to deliver Freights, then... the actual beaker effect of building Universities is lessened.

	15-02-2003 21:51									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

simple way to remind yourself if you forget - set tax to 50% and find a city with 2 science structures (we have many with just libraries and SETI) - for an even trade arrows, the science beakers should equal the trade arrows

Attachment: cremona.jpg
This has been downloaded 23 time(s).

	15-02-2003 21:57									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SCG simple way to remind yourself if you forget - set tax to 50% and find a city with 2 science structures (we have many with just libraries and SETI) - for an even trade arrows, the science beakers should equal the trade arrows

Thanks

I seldom build Universities these days except in my SSC - so never needed to learn the multiplier. Freight tends to be a lot more efficient.

	15-02-2003 22:12									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'll second SGP on the 50% increase to base science for Universities.

Let's start rolling those freights to up our science rate to finish the spaceship.

The faster we finish, the less we have to worry about those Mongols.

I also vote for Nuclear Fission- let's stay on the path people.

BTW- shouldn't spaceflight be available as well with Rocketry and Computers?

	16-02-2003 00:36									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

@ obiwan - Space Flight is the second last option on the list.

I voted for Mobile Warfare, and I'll explain why.

IIRC we're going to need Robotics eventually, in order to get Superconductor. Moreover, since we don't seem to be a nation of rushbuyers, we'll need to get some Manufacturing Plants put in place in order to build Spaceship parts efficiently (ideally, we want cities producing 40+ shields).

Space Flight doesn't do much for us on its own, except give the AI a chance to steal it.

	16-02-2003 08:27									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

just an observation on the tax rate - we are getting essentially 2-turn discoveries right now - We need 2698 beakers, and as the save is, we are making 1233 as the save. City planner suggestions make it 1271 (give or take a couple celebration plans). We have 2 freights I've proposed for delivery that can be delivered right now (demanded gems to Avila, demanded Oil to Valencia), for which I'd be a bit surprised if they don't net at least 400. Also, with CfC, and selected structures we might come close to 1 tech per round by the start of the next cabinet meeting if we can maintain our ferry layout and add a couple more transports

	17-02-2003 01:40									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The science ehancements (Library, University, Research Labs) are working cumulatively from the base. Each and every one adds the same. So it is valuable to get the least expensive ones in each city. SETI was great, because it added a Research Lab in every city at a modest per/city cost. But we don't want to ignore the remaining Libraries and Universities either. They will add 50% of the base to each individual city. A University is just as valuable to a city after SETI as it was before.

So, while our technology advances, we still have cities that should have Libraries, Marketplaces, etc as investments in the future. At this stage of the game, it is natural to think only in terms of the latest possible infrastructures, but we stiull need to let the smaller cities get the core structures built.

It doesn't pay off in the short-term, but it will 5 sessions from now.

	17-02-2003 09:48									#16
	Tired of ads?

quote: IIRC we're going to need Robotics eventually, in order to get Superconductor.

STYOM- Superconductor requires Plastics and the Laser.

Plastics requires Refining and Space Flight, while the Laser requires Nuclear Fission and Nuclear Power.

Robotics is off the path for the spaceship.

	17-02-2003 10:26									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 STYOM- Superconductor requires Plastics and the Laser. Plastics requires Refining and Space Flight, while the Laser requires Nuclear Fission and Nuclear Power. Robotics is off the path for the spaceship.

I think what STYOM is trying to do is work within the tendancies of the current players. Since pres doesn't seem too inclined to incremental rush buy and our City planner is already trying to accomodate that by finding ways to increase production, STYOM is pointing towards a tech (Robotics) that will greatly speed production of large items such as space ship parts

	17-02-2003 19:05									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 STYOM- Superconductor requires Plastics and the Laser.

Good catch, that's what I get for writing polls at work

Nonetheless, if we're going to build anything but a minimal spacecraft, we're going to need a lot of Freight for rushbuying (and cash) - or Manufacturing Plants.

Perhaps I was thinking 320 shields requires Robotics (to build in less than 6 turns)

	17-02-2003 22:12									#19
	Support Apolyton

I depend on the Minister of Science to show us clearly the straightest path to a good SS, while also advising us of some side techs that could be essential to our survival.

Put another way, as City-Planner, I work with what we have and what we want next from existing techs. I don't much worry about what we will have in the future. But the Minister of Science *is* concerned about our future abilities. I will use every tool we have, and the Science Minister will provide new ones as he is able.

Works for me!

	17-02-2003 23:39									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Not a big SETI fan -- you're practically ready to build the SS by the time you get it, and those camels work just as well toward building SS parts.

Stay with Freights for extra beakers.

	18-02-2003 00:17									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Um, we *have* SETI. We are discussing Cure for Cancer.

	18-02-2003 02:52									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

[takes off Science Minister hat] This is probably obvious to some of us, but it might help explain my thinking re: Robotics. If we have a lot of food caravans, we can set production in a city that produces 30+ shields to a wonder (often, Manhattan, since it hopefully won't be built in this game), and then add food caravan to put production at 50 shields. Then production is changed to a structural (no loss of shields, as SS parts count as wonders). The next turn, the city adds its 30+ shields and a structural is built.

Same deal for components/modules - except for components, you use 2 freights if the city produces 60 shields, instead of 3 freights. For modules, you use 6 freights, or 5 if the city produces 70+ shields.

This technique gets used a lot in OCC games where the ideal is a city with exactly 80 shield production (no need for freight to build structurals).

If we want a minimal spaceship built fastest, I think we need 16-2-3, or at least 35 food Freights. If we don't have 35 Freights, then we need to either have a lot of high production cities (meaning, we need manufacturing plants), or we need lots of cash for rushbuying.[/puts on Science Minister hat]

The Science Ministry does not endorse Robotics... it is off the true path. However, some of the citizenry think it might help.

	18-02-2003 02:59									#23
	Suffering from ads?

CfC?

It's generally smart to leave a few WOWs unpurchased. Nothing worse than building 35 food caravans for SS construction, then learning that there are NO WOWs available to assign them to, sicking you with 50% resale value for your investment.

Yes, it's happened to me.