15-02-2003 23:31									#1
	GoW declares was on Lux Invicta Full PM-box? Change here!

In a move that, frankly, doesn't surprise me, Ghengis Farb told me in chat that Lux Invicta and GoW had an agreement to trade math (from ND) to Lux and mysticism (from Vox) to GoW as soon as either one got it. GF found out (unsure how) that Lux had held onto Mysticsm and had not traded it to GoW as promised. GoW has declared war on Lux Invicta. Ghengis reports to me that he is still holding onto the save because he wants to try to get Neu Dem to pay them some cash to enter the war on their side of it. He is trying to talk to ND now.

Trip reports that GoW declared war because of treaty miscommunications about their offer of Horseback Riding. Frankly, I think Trip is covering up that he wasn't even researching Mysticism.

GoW asked me to declare war on Lux Invicta to get a unified alliance on the continent. I will consider it, but I frankly feel that we should remain neutral on this one. We have no legitimate reason to declare war and nothing to gain from it other than being a part of the "winning side" but this matter should be discussed.

Trip feels that if peace can be made with Neu Dem now, that he can fight off GoW ... he might be right. GoW has far fewer military units. He was bugging me to talk to ND today to see what I can do.

I offered to Ghengis to give them intel photos (embassy shot) of ND's capital for 16g (they split with us) and later we split costs with them. He counter-offered to pay us 35g for photos and mysticism. I told him I'd get back to him on that.

E_T suggested that we shop the photos around to other nations to see if anyone else wants a peek. This should be discussed as well.

Discuss and report more on this issue in this thread.

--Togas

	15-02-2003 23:47									#2
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War between GoW and Lux may not mean much, as GoW doesn't have excess units to wage war with - by all accounts they build barracks first to have all veterans.

	15-02-2003 23:53									#3
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I have sent the following PM to Darekill & Picahulu:

quote: Please keep this PM absolutely secret. Do not share this communication with any other teams. GoW will declare war on Lux Invicta due to a supposed treaty violation about not trading a tech. Frankly, we believe this is simply an excuse for them to take the northern Lux city. GoW has been talking about this all morning in the public chatroom at Apolyton. If you have access to the logs, I highly suggest you review them. GoW will try to contact you to be "bought" into the war. Lux Invicta is, understandably, desperate. Trip has asked me to contact you to inform you again that he is willing to settle for peace and will listen to your terms. As you know, Spain wants peace. We believe this is an excellent time to sue for peace. If you are able to make peace quickly with Lux Invicta you will allow them and GoW to fight each other while you can peacefully expand. There is also the possibility that your swordsmen can deal with the cutthroat Vultures of War as well, but I will leave such speculation up to your team. We will pressure Lux to accept whatever settlement offer you send to them. If there is anything further we can do, please let me know. --Togas, Ruler of Spain

	16-02-2003 00:09									#4
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This message was sent by Ghengis Farb in the email that has the save:

quote: Trip has to be the dumbest person on the planet. We offered to declare war on ND this turn in return for Camp Felix (the size 1 city Lux founded adjacent to our capitol). Not only did they not accept our offer, but Trip broke a second treaty by not giving us Mysticism after they had agreed to. That was the last straw and my team members gave me no option but to declare war on Lux or face a vote of No Confidence. My hands were tied and we declared war on Lux. This has NOTHING to do with Roleplay, it simply the result of Trip's overindulgence in Magic Mushrooms. If possible, your team might want to declare war on Lux so as not to be the odd civ out on the continent. Anyway we are off to kill "Mushroom Heads".

	16-02-2003 00:23									#5
	Re: GoW declares was on Lux Invicta Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Togas I offered to Ghengis to give them intel photos (embassy shot) of ND's capital for 16g (they split with us) and later we split costs with them. He counter-offered to pay us 35g for photos and mysticism. I told him I'd get back to him on that. E_T suggested that we shop the photos around to other nations to see if anyone else wants a peek. This should be discussed as well.

Its amazing all the extra stuff humans can come up with to generate revenue I want that money!!!!

As far as the war is concerned, anything to keep the region destabilized is preferable. I think we have been playing the role of the diplomatic peacemaker too hard to just turn on Lux now and join the conflict, even if it is only a war on paper.

I wish we could secretly contribute to Lux's defense, quite honestly. Unit-trading would be a great addition to the game with the next patch.

	16-02-2003 01:24									#6
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We can offer to help out Lux a couple of ways. That city that GF wants - what if they give it to us and if Lux survives we give it back. In the mean time it will provide a bit of revenue, and lots of opportunity for some map knoweldge.

We can offer to hold their treasury for them, for a 10% handling charge of course.

We can provide intel for them as we are neutral.

There are all sorts of Non Military things that we can do, and we can profit from them all. Ashame we don't have map making yet... oh well.

	16-02-2003 01:41									#7
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing We can offer to help out Lux a couple of ways. That city that GF wants - what if they give it to us and if Lux survives we give it back. In the mean time it will provide a bit of revenue, and lots of opportunity for some map knoweldge.

Believe it or not, Trip actually suggested this to Togas

	16-02-2003 01:45									#8
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Trip suggested that we TRADE CITIES, we take their northern city, they take some safe city in the south. He believes that GoW wouldn't dare attack us, and that later on, we could switch back.

I told him he was crazy.

--Togas

	16-02-2003 01:51									#9
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Oh, I understood in the chatroom that he wanted to GIVE us that city... So yes, he's completely , and

	16-02-2003 02:52									#10
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Why would we want such an inconvenient city?

	16-02-2003 03:07									#11
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Why wold we want such an inconvenient city? In a word MAPS. If they give us the city, we get a free defender. Nobody says we have to keep that city, although we might want to. Doubt it, but cant tell for sure till I see it and the surrounding territory.

And if we abandon it, our free defender can walk back home opening up map territory with each turn.

	16-02-2003 03:15									#12
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Can anyone say, WORKER FARM!!!

E_T

	18-02-2003 11:32									#13
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My only concern is that if ND and GOW have an alliance against Lux and we jump in the middle of it, might they not just carry that over into us?

Are we ready for a war against both of them?

I would be fully supportive of a war against one of them, especially if we could use one against the other.

	18-02-2003 20:56									#14
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This is a radical change with the events around the meeting of thursday night. The diplomacy seemed to go well, but alas, it has failed to keep GoW from war against Lux. GF has clearly betrayed Lux. I don't know if I'm using the right expression, but I'd say that GF has clearly a double agenda.
It's ridiculous to attend to a meeting with the intention to protect Lux and perjaps attack ND, while attacking Lux less than a week later.

Is their any possiblity that ND has 'bought' GF's support and that their have an agreement to defeat Lux and divide the cities? If so, there is no possible chance for Lux to stay alive and it would be good if we would ally with one of the two nations.

I fear that if we do not ally with one of both, they will sooner or later ally with each other against us.

The current developings make me even more aware of the high need of at least a large and strong defensive force.

Aidun Cian the younger

	18-02-2003 22:00									#15
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As I said another place.
We deal in the shadows of evil on this particular issue.
Tell Lux (this must be TOP SECRET! ) that we'll help, by declaring war on them.
Let it be known to all that we want our piece of the pie and that we'll join the alliance.
Then send an army north, into the terf of ND and SNEAK ATTACK Neu Theben! We declare war the very round we attack and put the entire city in chains and have them transported back to Madrid as slaves!
ND will be crippled, they'll have to fight a 2-front war.

	19-02-2003 00:11									#16
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quote: Originally posted by LzPrst Let it be known to all that we want our piece of the pie and that we'll join the alliance. Then send an army north, into the terf of ND and SNEAK ATTACK Neu Theben!

Seeing how everyone knows about our 20-turn Non-Aggression Pact with ND, I don't think that would be good for our reputation.

Anyway, we don't even have archers yet

	19-02-2003 00:20									#17
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I think we should stay neutral. It seems that Lux It's going to be destroyed anyway and we currently have not enough militar power to intervene. Moreover, an alliance with GoW now will not stop them of having a war with us in the future, if It's in their plans.

Getting a city from Lux sounds interesting, but It will be a guarenteed source of conflicts with GoW and ND. This, added to the founding of Santiago, makes the idea of an alliance against Spain more likely.

BUT, as has been previously appointed, we would get some valuable map information. We could also trade the city to ND for a fair price and get ride of the problem. The case is that we won't give any city to Lux (that's clearly unquestionable), so why would Lux give anything to us? especially if we want to abandon/sell that city.

	19-02-2003 08:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun This is a radical change with the events around the meeting of thursday night. The diplomacy seemed to go well, but alas, it has failed to keep GoW from war against Lux. GF has clearly betrayed Lux. I don't know if I'm using the right expression, but I'd say that GF has clearly a double agenda. It's ridiculous to attend to a meeting with the intention to protect Lux and perjaps attack ND, while attacking Lux less than a week later.

In their defense, if Trip had an arrangement with us and didn't honor it, we would likely have declared war on them also. While, I feel Gengis went to our meeting with the possibility of siding with ND at least an option in his mind, I don't think we can conclude that he was 100% sure of which side GoW would take. Going over the log you can see various comments where they simply don't take a position, clearly leaving themselves the option to only take a position dependent on developments that might arise.

Lux has shown this flip-flop diplomatic style thorughout this game and I conclude that the only reason we have better relations with Lux is the fact that we are farther away and not as dependent on them as the Warmongers were.

I do not wish to violate any treaty we have signed, be that Non-Aggression or otherwise, but without a doubt this is the best opportunity for victory against ND. If there was someway to justify an attack now, as in their continued attack on Lux, whom we have a treaty with, or perhaps the extermination of Lux could give us a legitimate if somewhat flimsy reason to declare the treaty void, I would support that tactic.

Alternately, it is a "non-aggression" treaty so are there other actions other than military attack that we might be able to successfully define as "aggression"?