16-02-2003 18:18									#1
	DIPLO: Proposal to RP Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Okay, a poll on what I should propose to RP.

They offered us a deal of a bunch of techs we already are getting from Vox, and a bunch of contacts that we'll get for free if we wait, so the response to that would be obvious. But I'd like to offer them a counter deal, even if we fully antcipate they won't take it, at least it's a show of good will, and compassion.

So the options in the Poll:

1. Loan proposal to RP, where we aim at 50 gold for 3 gpt for 20 turns. Probably won't be accepted, but it's the gesture that counts.

2. worker for gold, or gpt (not sure how much)

3. non-aggresion pact of sorts

4. 'forbid to settle too close to us' pact.

5. full (=current) minimap trade

6. Other, specify which.

7. Vote counter: Because this is a multioption pall, we need some way of figuring out how many people have voted. Always tick this one, please. If you don't want any of the above proposed, only tick this option, it will be a equivalent with a NO-vote over the entire line.

One day until end, it's not that important we need more time to discuss this. It's just a proposal after all, with few long term implications.

DeepO

	16-02-2003 20:43									#2
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1. sure
2. excellent idea
3. depends on how many turns
4. nah
5. nope

6. wonder trade agreement..?

	16-02-2003 21:11									#3
	Re: DIPLO: Proposal to RP Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DeepO But I'd like to offer them a counter deal, even if we fully antcipate they won't take it, at least it's a show of good will, and compassion.

Good idea. We don't want them getting the impression that they bought our contact for nothing and getting all upset at us as a result.

I'm not decided about all the proposals yet. Therefore, I would hold my vote for several hours.

	16-02-2003 21:33									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

None of them. At least not yet.

	16-02-2003 22:24									#5
	Re: DIPLO: Proposal to RP Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Okay, a poll on what I should propose to RP. They offered us a deal of a bunch of techs we already are getting from Vox, and a bunch of contacts that we'll get for free if we wait, so the response to that would be obvious. But I'd like to offer them a counter deal, even if we fully antcipate they won't take it, at least it's a show of good will, and compassion.

Your use of the word "compassion" sounds rather arrogant considering that at this particular tiime, RP seems to be about as strong as we are. I don't know whether that reflects your actual attitude or whether you've missed a nuance of the English language, though, in choosing that word.

I also think you're jumping the gun horribly to even put up a poll at this point. None of these issues is urgent, and the only one that has had much recent discussion was the gold loan idea first proposed yesterday - and that's just had one day of discussion. It's a lot better to have a discussion thread for a while before putting up a poll when a matter is not urgent. That way (1) a poll is not needed if no one seems to like an idea, (2) ideas can be refined before being put up for a vote (e.g. is 50 really the right amount of gold for the loan?), and (3) people's votes are based on a greater amount of information and thought.

In regard to the specific proposals,

1) It wouldn't hurt to try it as long as the message is worded correctly, e.g. "If you find yourselves in urgent need of gold due to the crisis on your continent, we would be willing to offer you a loan."

2) A worker-for-gold deal is a technical impossibility as long as neither of us has a city on the other's continent. In any case, it tends to be rather difficult for worker-for-gold deals to be worthwhile because the fact that slaves work half as fast tends to make workers more valuable to their own civs. (Although actually, slaves aren't that bad for an industrious civ wanting to build a road network - they take three turns instead of two because native workers lose some on rounding.)

3) A 30-turn deal could make excellent sense.

4) Definitely sounds good if "close" can be defined in such a way as to keep RP off our part of the continent.

5) At this moment, I'm inclined to like the idea because knowing the size and shape of the big continent could be immensely valuable in determining how much land is necessary to be competitive in the long term. But I'm not voting yet because there are also good reasons why it might not be such a great idea. If we do go for it, we would want to include an agreement for each not to tell anyone else about portions of the minimap likely to end up within the others' sphere of influence. (Note: Minimaps give away very little that can't be determined by having a galley circumnavigate a land mass and, on the flip side, if someone has our minimap, it's a lot easy to argue, "You have no legitimate need to have a galley poking around our neighborhood.")

Nathan

	16-02-2003 22:26									#6
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By the way, in "worker for gold," you didn't make it clear whether we'd be offering to buy or to sell, nor did you say anything about what the price would be likely to be.

	17-02-2003 02:12									#7
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Nathan, I started this poll because I just wanted to keep the conversation with RP going, so in that respect it is urgent. These are only proposals, nothing final, so the specifics could be discussed, on both sides.

Other thing: compassion may have been the wrong choice, what about sympathy? Just an expression that we care...

Worker for gold: can't we trade workers if we don't have a valid trade route? Never noticed that... in this case, there is no point in proposing it, of course.

3): NAP: there have been some talk with GK about a mobing NAP, one in which you take a 20 turn NAP, but which moves: each 10 turns it is renegotiated, so that if a deal stops, you still have a guaranteed 10 turns of peace. Also, each further deal (e.g. tech deal) automatically signs a 20 turn NAP. Again, only a proposal, where no specifics have been fully discussed yet.

4): There was some talk about having a limit on the closeness of settling: currently, if we prohibit settling within 5 tiles of an existing city, they can't build any cities on our part of the continent. Is somewhat related to a NAP.

5) Maybe needs to be discussed. Last time it came to the table, RP was the one fully rejecting it.

DeepO

	17-02-2003 02:52									#8
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Both "compasison" and "sympathy" imply that they are in some kind of bad or unfortunate situation. We have no real indication that such is the case.

It may be that part of where we're at odds has to do with different concepts of what the word "proposal" means. In my view, a "proposal" is something pretty concrete, something that the person making the proposal has already made a pretty definite decision on. That's very different from just "an idea we're considering," which implies that we haven't made up our own minds yet. If you would take ideas that get a majority to RP just as ideas we're considering, and ask whether they think they would be interested if we decide we want to go ahead with those ideas, I would have no problem with that. Just please avoid the word "proposal" because I think that carries a stronger connotation of acceptance on our side than can be justified from a one-day poll with little or no preliminary discussion.

In regard to the slave trade, the rule is not "valid trade route." It's "must have cities on the same continent." I don't know that I've ever tested it, but that's what I've read enough times from strong enough sources to believe it's right.

Nathan

	17-02-2003 03:21									#9
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I already voted, but I have an "other."

If Lux takes a swan dive, we need to make sure that GoW and ND get into the mother of all fastmover wars.

RP and GS could, umm, cooperate in making this happen.

	17-02-2003 03:36									#10
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I voted for loan and buy worker for gold. The cost wil decrease significantly if we build the Colossus.

	17-02-2003 03:39									#11
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I believe this is the right time to get RP and us closer- as i posted in the "War" thread, i think we might find RP more inclined to bond with us with things in the continent getting shaky. Out of the list DeepO's been making, i think we can start with a NAP as well as "no settling" thrown in, As a step in the right direction. an offer for a loan, when the need arises (like Nathan worded it) would also be nice.
Of course, we should come to them with a suggestion, not a proposal- and ask them to come to the table of negotiations (then we come with proposals), which can be done in a chat- i think this method of communication can help building friendship (if that's what we want to do).

	17-02-2003 04:25									#12
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Zeit: I don't particularly like chats for this... sure, it's more informal, but as was pointed out above (again), I need to reread some text before sending it on diplomatic channels. Chats are too fast for this...

I agree on the suggestion part, though, I was only considering to start negotiating, but wanted a quick check of feelings by the rest of us.

DeepO

	17-02-2003 17:05									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I already voted, but I have an "other." If Lux takes a swan dive, we need to make sure that GoW and ND get into the mother of all fastmover wars. RP and GS could, umm, cooperate in making this happen.

hmm, you mean RP and us paying GoW to go to War with ND? Not bad, but the thing is that we don't gain anything (except for some slowdown on the main continent).

There is some potential here though

	17-02-2003 23:37									#14
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More than just slowdowns. ND could very well emerge as a superpower in the main continent as a result of this war, if GoW doesn't turn back on them.
In any case, the elimination of a civ (unless we're the ones eliminating them) always means bad news for us, since it tips off the balance of power. From our perspective, the more different forces are active on the main continent, the better.

	18-02-2003 04:00									#15
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I wouldn't say ND will become a super power- not with them taking on Lux's pitiful land area (as was reported) when Lux is using scorched earth defense. What i do see is both ND and RP, and maybe GoW, all growing stronger from the gap left open by Lux's approaching demise.

We might want to consider pitting ND and RP against each other- GoW doesn't seem strong enough, and the way they were dragged to this war, without any call and payment from ND (or so i believe- ND would not have needed their help anyway), and their temple building, does not suggest they are keen on real mercenary style gameplay, i think its just that GF and the rest want to make themselves the game's hot shot warriors, but the way GoW was dragged into this war suggest they are not very serious about their role as mercenaries.

I mean, look at how this war caught them- without even an average army compared to a non military focused (or at least not promoted as one), and with an average military compared to us lowly band of warriors and a spearman- is that a promising fighting clan- no!

RP, as a real candidate for supremecy might serve us better .By launching a combined attack on ND, an embargo or whatever, we can serve both teams' interests in the future, but first, before such things are even discussed- the bonds between us must be strengthened.

	18-02-2003 06:18									#16
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zeit, I like the way you're thinking.

	18-02-2003 06:35									#17
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Zeit, two comments:

Our defense is not that thin, I'm more surpised by NDs power (which would be greater then ours), then of GoW's power. We've got quite a nice collection of troops, this early in the game. 8 warriors and a spear, plus upgrade money for 1 sword (used to be 2) isn't bad, we could handle ND most likely. GoW is about the same, and if they didn't use chops so extensively like we did, they could never have build more then us. Their joining in on the war is indeed rather symbolic, but maybe they'll get a promotion or so out of it.

ND's power is big, but understandable. And, If Lux keeps disbanding what they can't defend, their power advantage will fade away. They maximally cashed in on their trait, expansionist, which has a very short lifespan: You can use it to gain research free, hopefully making money, possibly gain some warriors from huts, and once your advantage stops because there are no more huts to explore, use all the economic power you have in creating an army, attacking a neighbour, and gain the next advantage (more cities + territory) which should propell you into winning.
Only problem is that getting Lux cities won't be such a good deal for them, which will leave them with a rapidly thinning army, and no more trait to count on giving a difference. Industrial has certainly helped us so far, and it still does...

RP will have the same slowdown now that they used up their expansionist trait, but as they are not losing any on the war, and have nicer start terrain, they will likely become the biggest player on the continent. Which might be a good ally, but which also might be our closest competitor.

In any case, who said "keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer"? It doesn't really matter, we should certainly strengthen our diplomatic relations with RP in the near future

DeepO

	19-02-2003 03:38									#18
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DeepO- now that i think about it- what you're suggesting makes sense. And the bottom line is, as you said, to keep them closer, to us. Despite the geographical isolation, with an effort we can keep ourselves involved and influencial, and that will be a major dilemma which will travel without throughout this game- what to give a priority- a secluded and relatively safe investment in our economy/culture/military, or channeling resources towards increasing our influence on the mainland.

Some gap, both in game and out of game will be left when Lux's gone. I reffer to a psychological as well- seeing one team's demise will surely gear others towards doing something- so that they won't face the same fate. We can fit in that gap, and i see RP as a prime target.

	20-02-2003 01:41									#19
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okay... the following message is ready to be sent to RP, if nobody objects to it soon (let's say within the next hour or so), I'll send it. I don't think many points will need to be discussed, but you never know...

quote: Togas, Ninot, We've been talking about possible trades with you on our forum, and while the discussion is still in full swing, allow me to ask for some input from you. It's unfortunate that so few opportunities arise from the previous list you sent me, few items are of use to us, as many were already promised by other teams, for various prices (sometimes free). The only thing that could be urgent is contact with Lux, as if we don't get this soon, we might never say hello to them... but saying hi is hardly worth 25 gold Future tech deals: This is where it becomes interesting. We are researching CoL, and when the time comes, we want to trade it to you. Please keep this information secret, it was said in confidentiality to you, and not meant to be briefed to third parties. There are a couple of things we are still discussing, but we would be very interested to hear your views on it. We are aware that CoL is the most expensive tech to go for right now, and want to exploit that advantage to fullest degree. After all, our scientists and scribes are working hard to discover it, it would be a waste if us diplomats wouldn't be able to put that value to good use. First question: would you be interested in a Non Disclosure Agreement? Such a NDA would mean that you are not allowed to trade our research away, while we won't trade your research to others. We are still discussing if we want that, but if you have outspoken oppinions, it would be good to keep those in mind. Second: Can you fully commit to trade literature to us, in exchange of CoL? Maybe we need a bit compensation for the larger cost, so the price is under review, but the principle of being able to trade once both parties can put their end on the table is an important concept to agree on. I haven't heard any confirmation from your side that you consider Literature tradeable, so I just had to make sure. Last future tech trade deal question: we maybe can get our hands on mathematics soon, would you be interested in acquiring it from us? Now, on to other things. I can understand that upon meeting us, you were eager to sign a deal with us, not only to deprive others from dealing with us (and yes, we seem to be in high demand), but also because most likely the situation on the main continent makes a bit of extra cash more then welcome. If you find yourselves in urgent need of gold due to the crisis on your continent, we would be willing to offer you a loan. This offer will stand for as long as we can without comprimising our internal security, but details of course have to be discussed, and agreed upon by my team. And, to avoid this kind of tension between us, we would be interested in a NAP (not with a 'fixed' end date, as that implies building tension towards the end of it, but in some way 'moving'), and in a 'don't settle too close to our borders' deal. Again, particulars are still under discussion, but would you be interested in such deals? Kind regards, DeepO of Gathering Storm.

DeepO

	20-02-2003 01:45									#20
	Remove this text

Damn... in reviewing this thread, it seems I lost the full minimap deal. I'll add a paragraph, like

quote: Now that we've met, would you be interested in a current minimap deal, under certain restrictions?

edit: when looking over the poll results again, I saw I offered to discuss NAP and 'no settle' deals, while the majority was against discussing it. Hmmm... will get it out my post, then.

DeepO

	20-02-2003 02:14									#21
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I'd remove "(sometimes free)". RP may be suspecting that we have a share-everything deal with Vox, and I don't suppose we would want to give them any more clues.
Other than that it's excellent.

	20-02-2003 02:18									#22
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True... (something free) will be removed.

DeepO

	20-02-2003 04:00									#23
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Okay, on second thought, I'm going to let this message stay up here until lunch tomorrow. All comments are welcome.

I said I was going to remove the NAP and 'no settling' discussions from the post, but somehow it doesn't feel right. I think most of us agree that we need to tighten relations with RP (even if we would be planning on taking their lands first), so would you guys leave the discussion in? Of course, I don't intend to have anywhere near a proposal without support, but mentioning it could be good for us.

DeepO (off to bed)

	20-02-2003 07:11									#24
	Put an end to popups!

(1) I also agree that the "sometimes free" needs to go. ("Free" isn't necessarily the right term anyhow, since what we get for "free" from Vox is really essentially part of our current partnership with Vox, which they are getting some significant benefits from too.)

(2) Vox is going to give us contact with Lux, so you can take the special mention of that out too.

(3) Map Making and Polytheism are both cost 12, while Code of Laws and Literature are cost 10. So Code of Laws is not exceptionally expensive by the standards of the current era, nor is it more expensive than Literature. (Currency and Construction are even more expensive, by the way, at 16 and 20, respectively.)

(4) With our deal in place with Vox, we are not in a position to sign a straight-up non-disclosure agreement. As I recall, though, we already mentioned the idea of bringing in a partner to research Philosophy, so we could offer to pass Philosophy on to them in exchange for their agreeing not to sell, trade, give, or otherwise pass on either Philosophy or Code of Laws to anyone else.

Please post your rewrite so we can give it another look-over before you send it. Sorry about all the metaphorical red ink.

Nathan

	20-02-2003 17:18									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Nathan:
1) true, will be done

2) I know, but wanted something to chat about. Not mentioning it would only make us look more secretive

3) Hmmm... messed up here. I thought CoL was going to be the most expensive of them all, and I wanted to avoid to give the idea we wanted just lit for CoL. As it stands, that wouldn't be a bad deal.

4) I considered that, however Vox has an NDA on HBR I thought, and they are not going to give it to us (at least, I wouldn't adivse them). It won't be a big problem if Vox has philosophy which they can trade to RP, at least not for Vox.
The most important reason I ask (I know I didn't menion it like this, but with good reason) is that I saw quite a bit discussion between RP, GoW and Lux about violated NDAs, talk about NDA, and things like that. I want to first of all hear their opinions on this, I guess RP is the one that has been pressuring the other teams for a NDA, but I need to make sure before we start negotations on that.

As to mentioning again we have another partner: Not yet. Last message I sent on the subject, I said we were looking for partners, so they know what we are aiming for (republic asap). Only if they ask directly, or a few turns before they finish lit should we tell them that Vox has been on a muttually exclusive research path with us. The longer we wait, the less RP knows.

Rewrite is coming soon (I will start on it, but need to give classes in half an hour)

DeepO

	20-02-2003 17:49									#26
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We have no guarantees that RP won't find someone else to trade to for Philosophy, which could leave Vox out in the cold if we sign a NDA. Similarly, RP might compare the values of the two techs and decide they don't want to make a straight trade. We can't sign an NDA with RP without putting ourselves in a position where we might be forced to violate one or the other of our agreements.

And keep in mind that however you view Vox's position with respect to GoW, they are in fact willing to give us HBR. So we have no excuse to trade for a tech and then refuse to pass it on to Vox if they want it.

Nathan

	20-02-2003 21:38									#27
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Okay, how's this:

quote: Togas, Ninot, We've been talking about possible trades with you on our forum, and while the discussion is still in full swing, allow me to ask for some input from you. It's unfortunate that so few opportunities arise from the previous list you sent me, few items are of use to us, as many were already promised by other teams, for various prices. The only thing that could be urgent is contact with Lux, as if we don't get this soon, we might never say hello to them... but saying hi is hardly worth 25 gold Future tech deals: This is where it becomes interesting. We are researching CoL, and when the time comes, we want to trade it to you. Please keep this information secret, it was said in confidentiality to you, and not meant to be briefed to third parties. There are a couple of things we are still discussing, but we would be very interested to hear your views on it. First question: would you be interested in a Non Disclosure Agreement? Such a NDA would mean that you are not allowed to trade our research away, while we won't trade your research to others. We are still discussing if we want that, but if you have outspoken opinions, it would be good to keep those in mind. Second: Can you fully commit to trade literature to us, in exchange of CoL? I haven't heard any confirmation from your side that you consider Literature tradeable, so I just had to make sure. Last future tech trade deal question: we maybe can get our hands on mathematics soon, would you be interested in acquiring it from us? I can understand that upon meeting us, you were eager to sign a deal with us, not only to deprive others from dealing with us (and yes, we seem to be in high demand), but also because most likely the situation on the main continent makes a bit of extra cash more then welcome. If you find yourselves in urgent need of gold due to the crisis, we would be willing to offer you a loan. This offer will stand for as long as we can without compromising our internal security, but details of course have to be discussed, and agreed upon by my team. Kind regards, DeepO of Gathering Storm.

Nathan, again, this is not a proposal, but just a msg to test where they stand. There's a big chance that we simply have to accept a NDA on literature, in which case we would be wise to get an NDA on CoL as well.

I agree on your concerns wrt Vox, but let them take care of their own diplomacy. If they can't trade philosophy for lit, it's their problem, not ours. We don't break any deal by not trading literature to them, if we already had a NDA (which could be a fact, not to be negotiated).

They might be willing to give us HBR, but as we know GoW asked for a NDA on that one, it would not be good to accept the deal, certainly not as Vox will think that if we ask for a NDA on e.g. CoL or republic, they can say "yeah, sure", and trade it onwards to whoever is interested. If they offer HBR, we should decline.

DeepO

	20-02-2003 22:43									#28
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I don't quite understand- If we get a tech- and Vox, for some reason, doesn't get that, because they fail to come with good proposal or whatever- we are still bound by our tech sharing pact. I think it goes against the codex we are suggesting, and although Vox might have tricked us into not accepting HBR by "mentioning" their NDA with GoW, it does in fact looks like they're willing to cross GoW in order to respect our deal. We, however, are not willing to count on Vox not to accept the tech, nor we are willing to risk the reputation hit should this be known to RP. We can offer this without the NDA, then if RP raise the issue (of NDA), we try to talk Vox into agreeing on a very specific exception (literature), and perhaps some compensation.

	20-02-2003 23:04									#29
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DeepO, the way you have things worded now, if I were RP, I would get the impression that Gathering Storm is fairly strongly inclined to favor the idea of a NDA. Your tone - "Would you be interested in...?" - and the fact that you point to what would be perceived as the advantages of a NDA rather than to the possible disadvantages, both give a strong impression in that direction.

I really think we're better off not bringing up the subject ourselves and hoping RP doesn't. It was GoW, not RP, that attached the NDA to the deal with Vox, so I'm not seeing what you're seeing that makes you think RP is likely to insist on a NDA. Also, a post copied to our forum from the intersite forum sounded like RP does not look entirely unfavorably on the prospect of reselling someone else's research.

But if you're convinced enough that RP will want a NDA that you think we need to address the issue now, your wording needs to sound more like it's something we don't want. For example, "Some of the things we have heard give the impression that you may insist on non-disclosure agreements accompanying trades. We would like to verify whether or not that is the case." (No, I haven't taken the time to look for the best diplomatic wording, but an approach more along those lines would avoid giving RP the mistaken impression that we look favorably on the idea of a NDA.)

Or if we want to discuss the possibility of some sort of limited NDA or three-way deal with a NDA attached, that would be workable. But you sound like you don't want to reveal as much information as would be necessary to make that type of deal work.

Nathan

	20-02-2003 23:20									#30
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DeepO, our deal with Vox would have no purpose for its existence if it were not for the inclusion of techs gathered from other teams. There can be no real doubt that such techs are included in our agreement, and that fact is a significnat part of why Vox is willing to give us Horseback Riding: they view their commitment to us as superceding the more dubious "commitment" GoW tried to thrust on them against their will (and using a rather underhanded manipulation of the game's mechanics to circumvent the negotiation process).

If another team tries to force a NDA on us, we'll have to deal with the situation when the time comes. But I see no possible excuse by which we could rationalize willfully soliciting a NDA without its constituting a flagrant violation of our treaty obligations to Vox.

Nathan