17-02-2003 00:29									#1
	The Iron Worker Options poll Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Oliverfa has posted a poll, but the way that is is asked, it skews the poll to one desision only, which is Iron ASAP. Granted, I too want that Iron as soon as possible. I also want us to build up our army as soon as possible, too. Whith these two things in mind, I have presented Oliverfa with 3 Options for getting the Iron connected.

In all of the options the following is the same:
VS is the Visgoth slaves, SW is the Saragossa Worker that is soon to be built. At the same time, Saragossa is building Walls(current build)-Worker-Warrior-Horse-Horse-Horse-Spear-Settler(projected Q). The Iron City placement is 1 tile NW of the Site #8 in my last map (i.e. just SE of the Iron)


Here are the options:

Option #1 - Go for Iron ASAP
Move VS to Saragossa #6 and road. Move to Santiago #3 and start road, joined by Saragossa Worker and both move to Santiago #5 and road, then Santiago #15 and road, Then Ironcity #2 and Road, Then the Iron itself and road.

Iron is connected in 1025BC - Saragossa builds it's 2nd Horse in 825BC.


Option #2 - Mine Saragossa #6, then go for the iron.
Move VS to Saragossa #6 and Mine. It's joined by SW and both road and the rest is the same.

Iron is connected in 1000BC - Saragossa builds it's 2nd Horse in 900BC. Compaired to Option #1 - 1 turn later for the Iron, 3 turns earler for the 2nd Horse.


Option #3 - Mine Saragossa #4 (the Horse) & #6
VS Mines #4, moves to #6 (SW joins it here) and both Mine and road #6, the rest is the same.

Iron is connected in 925BC - Saragossa builds it's 2nd Horse in 950BC and it's 3rd in 750BC. Compaired to Option #1 - 4 turns later for the Iron, 5 turns earlier for the 2nd horse.


As we are worried about ND's Military Capablity, we need to be able to build units much faster. The 3'rd Horse can also be a sword, as the Iron will be connected then and they are the same sheild cost. Option 3 is better overall for Spain, as we have the better overall production output over time. I would rather have that second Horse sooner and wait just a little bit more for the Iron (only 4 turns).

E_T

	17-02-2003 00:43									#2
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I'm in favour of #3, however I think choosing between the options would be much easier if we had a theoretical military analysis of how soon ND could attack us with their current (or future) forces. It wouldn't take much to convince me to go for #2.

	17-02-2003 00:46									#3
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Any of them sound good. Whatever.... just get iron linked up.

	17-02-2003 00:47									#4
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Ok, next time I will ask you which options do you want for the poll.

What I was asking in my post and what you are asking at that poll are two very different things. I'm trying to decide between polices, not options. Options are infinite. I cannot see why you limite only to these three. For example, if the worker which is supposed to come from Pamplona helps with the road to the iron we have a new option here.

My point, and what I'm very afraid of, is that we stop "for just one turn" now we will later stop "for just one more turn" to have another mine, or to improve some lands near Santiago, and thus the road to the iron is delayed.

Anyway, if you feel like you will manage workers much better than me I invite you to ask lord Togas to appoint yourself for the position.

Last edited by OliverFA on 17-02-2003 at 03:20

	17-02-2003 01:04									#5
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voted 2. However, instead of all horse units can we add in a couple of warriors to plan on upgrades. We may have to change out tax rate to do so but I think we will need it and need it ASAP.

	17-02-2003 01:07									#6
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As I read the 1675 bc orders thread, Lord Togas has directed the VS to move west and road. Hence option 3 is now moot. And looking at the remaining options, I vote for #1.

	17-02-2003 01:11									#7
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He has so ordered, but the turn has NOT been played yet, and he can change his mind.

E_T

	17-02-2003 01:14									#8
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FYI: Pamplona's Settler (to be built after the coming worker) will be ready to move in 1400 BC.

If the go in a straight line from Pamplona to the city site, Iron City would be founded in 1275 BC (5 turns from start of the journey). I cannot say whether the road network will speed them up or slow them down.

	17-02-2003 01:17									#9
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quote: Originally posted by dejon I'm in favour of #3, however I think choosing between the options would be much easier if we had a theoretical military analysis of how soon ND could attack us with their current (or future) forces. It wouldn't take much to convince me to go for #2.

According to some people, it will be next turn (at least, that's the impression that I get). They still have a war to fight, they are still Rexing, their Capitol does not have that much in the way of Production Capability. So I don't consider them a serious threat, in the long term. In the short term, they could get us with those 5 swords, no doubt. So we need units tofill the ranks.

E_T

	17-02-2003 01:38									#10
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I voted #3. ET's magical words have convinced me. A higher production is more important than to have iron asap. We are winning a huge amount of productiontime by improving our productioncapacity first. Having units 125 years earlier while it takes several lifetimes to let ND get their attackforce to Spain is an enormous gain. ND's production can't be much higher than ours, so they haven't had the time to produce more than one attackforce: there is no threat from the land of Arabia itself, neither of it's attackforce.

Vote option #3 or otherwise option #2 if you feel we can't delay iron with 2 turns, but I urge people not to vote option #1 as we loose many vualuable productiontime with this option.

Aidun Cian the youger

	17-02-2003 01:48									#11
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If we do the iron road ASAP, then the 2 workers could mine the iron mountain next to building the road. It will be interesting to know how this mine would increase the Iron City production. Or they could build a straight road to Pamplona in order to secure the iron connection, even if the Saragossa-Santiago-Iron City road is cutted off by ennemy forces.

As suggested by GodKing, Saragossa and Santiago could build several warriors instead of Horses for later upgradings. Archers would help too. We really not need Horses to defend Saragossa and Santiago. Archers are as strong than Horses and aren't handicaped by the movement on jungle. Horses are.

No matter, I vote for option #1

	17-02-2003 01:58									#12
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The Iron Cities Corruption/waste will be 66% before it's connected to Madrid and 58% afterwards. That Iron Mine won't help much, atleast not until we get to Monarchy

E_T

	17-02-2003 03:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by astrologix Or they could build a straight road to Pamplona in order to secure the iron connection, even if the Saragossa-Santiago-Iron City road is cutted off by ennemy forces.

This is something that I would like to see happen as well at the earliest convenience.

Concerning the options, I don't see that horsemen are going to be very effective if swordmen enter our territory from the north. The jungle provides 25% defense bonus and the rivers up there can offer another 25% if we chose to attack across them. A enemy swordman's defense bonus would then be 3. Horsemen would be attacking at a significant disadvantage. I voted for the iron connection ASAP.

	17-02-2003 03:56									#14
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the thing is that the horses can be used for Barb hunting, while the Warriors come back to get upgraded.

E_T

	17-02-2003 04:07									#15
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Double Post, poly is dieing a slow death today

E_T

	17-02-2003 05:58									#16
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The horseman however do allow for versatility should the attack hit silk city and not saragossa - or should then try to end run us and also could help on a counter attack. I also like E_T's suggestion on using the horsemen in place of the warriors and move the warriors in to get the iron. Once the iron is connected, we should road to Pamplona as astro suggested so all our cities have the iron benefit.

# 3 is for me

	17-02-2003 06:51									#17
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edit thread reference

Lord Togas has posted the 1675 world map in the 1675 orders thread. As expected, VS has moved west making option 3 moot.

Or atleast deferred until Saragasso 6 is roaded. Otherwise there is significant turn loss on the worker.

Can we please stop talking about what might have been and get back to what could become? Could someone identify what would change relative to shield counts vs time regarding a modified 3 that roads Saragasso 6 before mining Saragasso 4?

Last edited by roadcage on 17-02-2003 at 06:58

	17-02-2003 08:42									#18
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Option 2 is still viable as it requires the mine at were the worker is currently at. In this option, VS will build a mine. Just before it gets done, the Saragossa worker will be ready (moving to the same tile) and the next turn they can both work on the road and move/work at the same time towards the Iron.

If VS builds the road first and then mines, and is joined by SW, then it might take 1 turn longer, it's an uncertainty when having odd number of turns left to complete the task..

As for shield counts, this is using full output (over 40 turns)
Option 1 - 20 turns at 2 shields per turn (SPT), then 20 more turns at 3 shields per turn (all the way up to size 5)

Option 2 - 10 turns at 2 SPT, 20 turns at 3 SPT (size 2 & 3), 10 more turns of 4 SPT (size 4 & 5).

and for compairasion - Option 3 - 10 turns at 2 SPT, 10 turns at 3 SPT (size 2 - mine at 6 built), 20 turns of 4 SPT (sizes 3 to 5).

E_T

	17-02-2003 18:49									#19
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I really appreciate Aidun (in the I want war thread) and ET efforts to analyse coldly the problem we are facing. The solution is in thinking first then planning etc.

I just would like to incorporate a few items in their thoughs :

1. The soonest the stack of 5 (or then 6) swordsmen could arrive before Saragossa is five turns (6 if they choose to cross the river; what defence can we successfully oppose to that ? Would 4 spearmen be enough ? If yes we already have them available.

2. The value of horsemen seems underestimated by the team. They are upgradable up to cavalry, they can retreat and they move fast. Eight of them could take easily ND capital (assuming 2 spearmen). The jungle is not an argument against horses; it is quite clear that two tiles of jungle are to be roaded before attacking ND.

3. With barracks in Madrid, we need more than ever a road connecting to Pampelona. This should have a higher priority than the iron. The next settler is for the iron, then workers should be build in lieu of the following settler.

All this would not modify significantly the medium term plans, and would make the present situation much more comfortable. How long will we accept that the Capital of Spain is not connected to the front ?

	17-02-2003 19:09									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT 3. With barracks in Madrid, we need more than ever a road connecting to Pampelona. This should have a higher priority than the iron. The next settler is for the iron, then workers should be build in lieu of the following settler.

Señor DAVOUT, Pamplona's next queue is a Worker being built specifically to road back to Madrid.

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT How long will we accept that the Capital of Spain is not connected to the front ?

3 turns from when Pamplona starts building it

	17-02-2003 19:30									#21
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I like it, ruby_maser, but it is not enough; it would take 18 turns with one worker; we need 2 more on this job so that it take only 6 turns.

Would Madrid build, in 6 turns, veteran horsemen, ND would think twice before attacking us.

	21-02-2003 03:52									#22
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Yeah right...
Three turns to the big road project starts. An old project not even started on yet! Meanwhile, low-prod Barcelona gets connected using 2 workers. I just ask why?

	21-02-2003 06:47									#23
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Rumour has it that our Lord Augusto Togas’ uncle Quintilio had a SEX policy of his own down in Barcelona, and, getting seasick easily, was dissatisfied with the length of time needed to travel by road. I seem to be getting a lot of girls from Barcelona whose fathers’ names are Fitz-Quintilio.

[OOC: Oliverfa, what’s the real Spanish equivalent of Fitz? It’s the medieval English word used to give the king’s bastards a name, such as, say, John Fitzwilliam, who would be John, bastard of King William.]

	21-02-2003 14:28									#24
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ThePlagueRat,

This road is important, because, it will give Madrid the Silks luxury. On the other hand, the two workers will next chop the forrest near Madrid, in order to help to build faster the barraks on our capital. Finally, at least one of the two workers will irrigate these tiles to bring water to Barcelona to help his growth.

At the same time the Visigoth worker is building the iron road and the next Pamplona worker will build the road between Madrid and Barcelona.

	21-02-2003 16:50									#25
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Ok. This luxury plan of yours is good for the Madrid population, but would be bad prioritizing if we get attacked. Madrid is the no.1 military base, and it needs to produce offensive units.
So if it can't do that, let's just stay away from any conflicts!
Or we can reevaluate the plan to strenghten the military sooner? It ought to be considered and discussed at least.

	21-02-2003 18:22									#26
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Astrologix has summarized the plans for connecting the Spanish Empire very well

Pikesfan: As far as I know, there is no an Spanish word for "Fitz". We could invent one

	21-02-2003 18:46									#27
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Señores, This might sound a bit arrogant, but if we get attacked before Madrid is connected, the current administation have proven itself incompetent. I know our dictator is quite good with diplomacy, and I hope he manages to keep competitors at bay diplomatically.


*voice gets a bit more whispering and snakelike*
However, as the ruthless Plaguates I am, I now a way we could have gone to war quite successfully and backstabbed our biggest competitor almost by now. If the Pamplona-Madrid track had been built early on by the two (+one more to do it fast) workers, Madrid could have been able to produce loads of Horsemen in counjunction with other cities building loads of Spearmen. Quite soon I could have a stack-o-doom ready to bonk some heads right up the virtually undefended NeuTheben, while their swordsmen were running about kicking Trip's sore little butt. It's offensive, scruplous, and it works with most competitors dealing in other wars.



OOC:
Ok, it would have required a coup to nullify the non-aggresion pact, another planning of the workforce and military. The current administration are planning for peace and luxus. It's another way of playing the game and I respect that, though I share another opinion. Perhaps I would have fit better on GoW or something?

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 21-02-2003 at 18:59

	21-02-2003 19:08									#28
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The PlagueRat,

The plans of ND were certainly built many turns ago and it's "normal" that we were unprepared for such an aggressiveness.

Until now, we had mainly REX plans, and we can't change it instantly. Our new dictator, Augusto Togas is more war oriented and we can now go in a more military approach.

But, it'll take some tours until we improve our defensive forces. It must be our 1rst priority for now. We'll see in about 20-25 turns if we will become an agressor or not.

It's my current feeling. It could change...