17-02-2003 01:29									#1
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We are the civilization of Apolytonia, reincarnated for the Inter-Site Democracy Game.

Start date: February 18th (subject to change)

General:

Civ : Carthage
Color : Spanish Blue (?)
Noun : Apolytonians
Adjective : Apolytonian
Title : (?)
Leader : Markos

Other Teams:

CDG
Apolyton
CFC
Grenouille (French team with Crousto, Spiffor, and Astrologix from Apolyton)
Civilization Webring Forum (German team)
Firaxis
CGN (probable)

Game Settings:

No AI civs
Accelerated Production is Off
Standard Victory Conditions
Regent Difficulty
Standard Map Size

Government:

Consuls:
Vondrack
NotYouEither
Ninot

Constitution:

A. The Consuls

1. Three Citizens shall be elected as Consuls.
   a. Initial elections will occur upon ratification of this Constitution.
   b. There will be an opportunity to nominate the Consuls, and then an election, where the 3 people with the most manual ballots are chosen as Consuls.
   
2. The Consuls have the authority to play the game.
   
3. The Consuls have the authority to make final game decisions, but must act within the boundaries of the law.
   
4. The Consuls should follow legal minister orders unless forced by unforseen circumstances.
   
5. One Consul shall be appointed President.
   
6. The Consuls have the power to rule on senatorial disputes in a manner they see fit.
   
7. Consuls may only be removed from office by a vote of No-Confidence.
   
8. The Consuls appoint Ministers.

B. The President

1. The President leads the Consuls.
   
2. The President shall act as an official spokesperson for the Consuls.
   
3. The President will be chosen by agreement of the Consuls, in a manner they see fit.

C. Minister of Defense

1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Defense.
   
2. The Minister of Defense advises on the movement and engagement of combat and scouting units.
   
3. The Minister of Defense advises on the upgrading of units.

D. Minister of the Interior

1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of the Interior.
   
2. The Minister of the Interior advises on the movement and usage of all workers and settlers.
   
3. The Minister of the Interior advises on the Science and Luxury Sliders, the treasury, and the direction of science research.
   
4. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city citizens.
   
5. The Minister of the Interior may draw boundaries and regions within the nation and appoint governors over those regions.
   
6. The Minister of the Interior advises on the management of all city build queues, including the rushing of projects.
   
7. The Minister of the Interior may create or alter any system for naming all cities, provinces, geographic features, and so forth.

E. Minister of Foreign Affairs

1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Foreign Affairs.
   
2. The Minister of Foreign Affairs gives lead to diplomatic affairs with other nations. He may appoint ambassadors to assist him.
   
3. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the establishment of Embassies.
   
4. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on Espionage affairs.
   
5. The Minister of Foreign Affairs advises on the engagements of Treaties with other nations.

F. Minister of Information

1. One Citizen shall be appointed as Minister of Information.
   
2. The Minister of Information is responsible for the timely availability of game-related information to the People.

G. Senatorial Procedure

1. All members of the team who are not Consuls are Senators.
   
2. The Senate has the power to create law, which the Consuls must follow.
   a. A Bill must be proposed by a Senator, and clearly state the purpose in the first post, and have the following options for a poll: yea or nay.
   b. The Bill must be passed by a simple majority, 50% plus 1, to become a law.
   c. All bills must be open for at least 48 hours.
   
3. The Senate has the power to take a vote of No-Confidence.
   a. Any Senator may propose a NoCon vote.
   b. The Senator must state the person he is intending to remove from office, and the person he intends to replace him with, in the first post.
   c. A vote must have the three options of yea, nay or abstain.
   d. A vote must be open for at least 36 hours.
   e. A vote of No-Confidence that passes will take effect immediately.
   f. A vote will pass with a simple majority, 50% plus 1.
   g. Any Consul, Minister, or official appointed by the Consulate is subject to a vote of No-Confidence.

Correct me if anything is wrong. I'll spruce the look of it up later on.
I'll add things as I find them, or as they become known.

Last edited by Vlad Antlerkov on 17-02-2003 at 03:22

	17-02-2003 01:34									#2
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Didn't 1BC drop out?

	17-02-2003 01:38									#3
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You're right.

I knew a lot of this info would either be incomplete, out-of-date-, or just plain wrong... When I meant correct me, I meant it.

	17-02-2003 01:44									#4
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I'd say it's safe to say that the Spanish secondary lighter blue beat out American blue in the thread poll...

	17-02-2003 01:47									#5
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True. However, no one seems to know the status of what our 'official' color is.

	17-02-2003 01:59									#6
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VOTES ON COLOR:

Trip: American Blue
ThePlagueRat: Grey
BetaHound: Spanish Blue, Carthaginian Brown
Dejon: Spanish Blue
Tiberius: Babylonian Blue, Spanish Blue, English Orange
pikesfan: Spanish Blue, Light Orange, Carthaginian Brown
vondrack: Spanish Blue, Light Orange, Carthaginian Brown
Vlad Antlerkov: English Orange, Babylonian Blue, Spanish Blue
Panzer32: Babylonian Blue, Grey
Arnelos: Spanish Blue, Light Orange
Kloreep: Babylonian Blue, Light Orange
panag: American Blue
Calc II: Bab Blue, White, Roman Red

POINTS RESULTS (1 = 3pts, 2 = 2pts, 3 = 1pt):

Spanish Blue: 18
Babylonian Blue: 12
Light Orange: 8
American Blue: 6
Grey: 5
English Orange: 4
Carthaginian Brown: 4
White: 2
Roman Red: 1

----------------

RESULT: Spanish Blue is CLEARLY in the lead.

	17-02-2003 02:00									#7
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We're going to use the whole point results thing again?

Where does the chaos end.

Like I said, what is the 'official' decision that's currently known by all the teams? Voting on the color here and not telling anyone what we pick doesn't do a bit of good, you see.

Last edited by Trip on 17-02-2003 at 02:09

	17-02-2003 02:06									#8
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Trip... you and panag were the ONLY people that voted for American Blue... no-one else even listed it as a 2nd or 3rd choice

I fully suggest that BetaHound or Vondrack, on behalf of the team, please post to the 1BC or other public boards informing them that our color choice is currently:

1. Spanish secondary-color Blue (paler blue)
2. Babylonian Blue
3. Light Orange

As has been voted upon.

There are 2 days left until gamestart, there's plenty of time for BetaHound and Vondrack to do this...

Thank You.

	17-02-2003 02:10									#9
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What if there's question about the official nature of this so-called 'poll' you speak of?

	17-02-2003 02:30									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Trip What if there's question about the official nature of this so-called 'poll' you speak of?

Just so you know, stupid sh-- like this why you lost the vote for Consul. More people would have voted for you if they thought you wouldn't try stuff like this.

and because you did lose the vote for Consul, what is "official" will be given to the community by Vondrack and perhaps notyoueither and Ninot, not you.

I have faith that they will respect that an option only you and panag voted for LOST to 3 other options which many more people voted for. Spanish blue is currently ahead, followed by Babylonian Blue and Light Orange.

Trip - live with it.

	17-02-2003 02:35									#11
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People are sooooooo high-strung...

Would a mod please delete the replies to this thread? I would have originally locked it if I had the choice, and had people PM me the fixes, etc.

	17-02-2003 02:37									#12
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I might also point out that at no point was it decided that Markos' title should be "g0d" for this particular game, another area where you have decided to make a decision for the entire team despite not being in any official capacity to do so.

I've started a thread so that people can vote on it. We have 2 days until the game starts and that's enough time to figure that out.

	17-02-2003 02:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Would a mod please delete the replies to this thread? I would have originally locked it if I had the choice, and had people PM me the fixes, etc.

Now you want to censor the material that conflicts with your personal decisions on behalf of the whole team?

C'mon....

Would the Consuls please set up their own OFFICIAL thread for the purpose of handling official game information so that we don't have to put up with this garbage.

Thank You.

	17-02-2003 02:43									#14
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Wow, I would never have thought that Arnelos would have resorted to this kind of attack on someone's character, but I guess I was wrong...

Censorship? No. Off-topic? Yes...

	17-02-2003 02:52									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I might also point out that at no point was it decided that Markos' title should be "g0d" for this particular game, another area where you have decided to make a decision for the entire team despite not being in any official capacity to do so. I've started a thread so that people can vote on it. We have 2 days until the game starts and that's enough time to figure that out.

The reason I put that was because I thought I saw it mentioned by BH somewhere. There's a reason why I said "Correct me if anything is wrong" and "I knew a lot of this info would either be incomplete, out-of-date-, or just plain wrong... When I meant correct me, I meant it."

I'm sorry that you see this thread as some way that I'm trying to impose myself on the game... Maybe you're looking too deep into this...

	17-02-2003 03:03									#16
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Asking for the DELETION of speech which conflicts with your version of events is the very essense of censorship.

If you had changed the information in the top post when I pointed out that you were wrong, I wouldn't be mad at you.

Rather, you suggested that votes weren't "official" and used cute emoticons while saying you essentially refused to recognize the validity of a public vote that you lost.

THAT was when I got mad.

It wasn't that the top post was incorrect, I simply pointed that out.

It was when you refused to allow yourself to be corrected

Following that with attempting to censor dissent to your point of view is something only a complete idiot would not recognize as being a potential cause for anger...

If you will kindly change the post to recognize what was pointed out to begin with, there would be no need for any of this...

	17-02-2003 03:10									#17
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Do you really think this is the kind of thing appropriate in a game summary thread? Should this discussion be around in 8 months as the game is in the grip of very important events... Do you really think that all these posts should remain in this thread?

In regards to me 'refusing' to change what I had, actually, I already changed it...

	17-02-2003 03:24									#18
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Ack, I shouldn't have even considered editing the first post. Mea culpa.

* Vlad Antlerkov shoots self, then walks off as if nothing happened

	17-02-2003 03:32									#19
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OK, guys, let's stop it.

We have more important things to do than quarrel like this. I agree that taking Trip's personal choices as the team choice was plain wrong, but what is now unfolding here is something nobody actually wants, that I am sure of... so let's calm down, please.

Trip, may I ask you a favour, please? I have been doing some preliminary planning regarding a special thread called something like "Apolyton ISDG InfoCentral" or something to that effect. I will try to include all kinds of useful information there (locking the thread, so that it does not end up like this one - and creating another one meant for the discussion regarding the information posted there, suggestions, corrections etc.), but I will not be able to do it earlier then tomorrow. I have been working for the whole of today and feel like going to bed ASAP.

Be so kind and attach links to corresponding threads to whatever information you include in your information summary, so that when I am working on it tomorrow, I just follow your links, picking up the relevant information. It will also help people check whether the interim "choices" you are listing here are accurate or not, possibly even directing them to the thread they can cast their votes before it's too late.

Thanks.

AFAIK, the only thing we know for sure is that we will be playing Carthage. The game setup has been also finalized, BetaHound is the person to know what the exact settings are. There were no final decisions taken for the customization features yet (even though various polls and discussions are open on the topic), perhaps with the exception of Markos being the name of our leader.

BetaHound, would you point me out to where the final game settings were mentioned, please?

Everybody asking for the information - be so kind and wait until tomorrow, the information will be posted. For the time being, try going through the threads here, they are not that long yet. Most of the decisions were not finalized yet, so by reading and voting, you can still affect the result.

	17-02-2003 03:41									#20
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OK, guys, let's stop it.

We have more important things to do than quarrel like this. I agree that taking Trip's personal choices as the team choice was plain wrong, but what is now unfolding here is something nobody actually wants, that I am sure of... so let's calm down, please.

Trip, may I ask you a favour, please? I have been doing some preliminary planning regarding a special thread called something like "Apolyton ISDG InfoCentral" or something to that effect. I will try to include all kinds of useful information there (locking the thread, so that it does not end up like this one - and creating another one meant for the discussion regarding the information posted there, suggestions, corrections etc.), but I will not be able to do it earlier then tomorrow. I have been working for the whole of today and feel like going to bed ASAP.

Be so kind and attach links to corresponding threads to whatever information you include in your information summary, so that when I am working on it tomorrow, I just follow your links, picking up the relevant information. It will also help people check whether the interim "choices" you are listing here are accurate or not, possibly even directing them to the thread they can cast their votes before it's too late.

Thanks.

AFAIK, the only thing we know for sure is that we will be playing Carthage. The game setup has been also finalized, BetaHound is the person to know what the exact settings are. There were no final decisions taken for the customization features yet (even though various polls and discussions are open on the topic), perhaps with the exception of Markos being the name of our leader.

BetaHound, would you point me out to where the final game settings were mentioned, please?

Everybody asking for the information - be so kind and wait until tomorrow, the information will be posted. For the time being, try going through the threads here, they are not that long yet. Most of the decisions were not finalized yet, so by reading and voting, you can still affect the result.

	17-02-2003 04:08									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I fully suggest that BetaHound or Vondrack, on behalf of the team, please post to the 1BC or other public boards informing them that our color choice is currently: 1. Spanish secondary-color Blue (paler blue) 2. Babylonian Blue 3. Light Orange Thank You.

Guys - this has all been done. We are on record for the lighter Spanish Blue colour.

And Markos is an Emperor.

That being said, if we feel strongly that we need to re-poll on this stuff, well, we should do it quickly.

I fully appreciate that some of this was a bit rushed, including my earlier polls, but I did this in the interest of getting the game going. And many of the choices were going to be middle of the road anyway. The game set-up, as it is currently planned, is perfect. All's well that ends well.

And at no point was a critical feature - such as the civ choice - rushed.

I will point out where I summarized both the game features and our civ customization. (I hope I can find both. I'm sure I did the former, not sure about the latter. My apologies in advance if I did not.)

I believe Trip's initial idea of a game summary was good - I probably should have done it if I had had more time. And I was intending to come back and do some of the corrections. And I share Arnelos' frustration at folks drifting in after the fact, when decisions have been made, and questioning everything. Hey - we can sit here at stare at our navels for another few weeks or we can get this thing underway.

So - peace and good will to all. vondrack's suggestions are sound. I will look for the previously posted info - and I will review Trip's initial post.

Cheers - (are we having fun yet?) ... Beta.

	17-02-2003 04:17									#22
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To change the subject for a minute - which I am sure no one will object to - this seems like to a good place to post my pep talk/rant form the 1BC forum on game play times. Two of the other teams seem to be missing the point. And were squawking over 4 hours per turn. This was what I said.

Re: Discussion regarding rules for Intersite PBEM Democracy game
Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 4:01:32 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lucky , Goonie - easily done. Crousto is right. Look ar borc's time counter for the Apolyton demo game. Each team is given 4 hours per turn - you start with 100. If you use less than 4 hours - you accumulate the time. If you use more, you lose it. All teams are still above 100 hours - in some cases well above. Which indicates that this works. Remember - you also get to identify 7 'green' hours - (say your time zone's midnight to 7 am period) if you get the save during that period the clock does not start until it is out of the green hours. As stated a number of times earlier - we have been able to average 24-30 hours for all seven teams to play their turn, which works out to about 4 hours per team, INCLUDING the green hours. It can be done. If you are thinking of a process where you get the save - open it up - let the entire team have a look - discuss it - make decisions and play - forget it. You need to have a certain number of 'players' - minimum two - 3 or 4 would work well - who know what to do once the save shows up. Every now and then there are some critical things which pop up and need discussion - so yes - take the time - that is what the 24 hour rule is for - and the ACCUMULATED time on the time counter. But generally. you need a governance system that can accomodate team discussions and decisions without slowing the game down.

There - I'm done. .... BetaHound


Kentonio responded with an "Amen".

	17-02-2003 04:24									#23
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The Game Status and Countdown thread that was being used to keep track of ... the game status - has this post from me, dated 9 Feb at 22:12 est.

"From the intersite forum. The team votes are finalized.

FINAL INTERSITE GAME PARAMETERS

8 human civs, no AI's
No accel. Production
Standard victory conditions
Monarch level difficulty
Standard world/map size
Continents 2 landmass
Normal climate, temperate, 4 billion yr
Restless barbarians"

And BTW - there were several earlier posts leading up to this indicating which ones had been decided upon as the team voting progressed. I was the one responsible for recording and tallying the votes from the other teams as they came in.

Now - civ customization .... let me see...

	17-02-2003 04:31									#24
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OK - I am guilty. I didn't post the civ customization stuff back here - or if I did, I can't find it. I collected the info from the civ customization thread, ran the poll on the noun as that seemed to be in some doubt, and posted the following at 1BC yesterday for the set-up. Sorry for the confusion folks. Some of this kerfuffle rests on my shoulders.

Re: Discussion regarding rules for Intersite PBEM Democracy game
Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 9:52:50 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apolyton's set-up:

Civ: Carthage
Civ Name: Apolyton
Noun: Apolytonians
Adjective: Apolytonian
Leader Name: Markos
Leader Title: Emperor
Civ Color: Light Blue

Regarding the color: there's a light blue color that's even more pale blue than the American/Chinese blue. It's the color the Spanish use if the Americans or Chinese have already taken the light blue color. We would prefer this secondary Spanish blue.

	17-02-2003 04:37									#25
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Er - correction to my last post - this the title post in the Apolytons vs Apolytonians thread. It is pretty clear. And I indicated a few posts down in the thread that I was taking the results to 1BC. Whew ...

Now - that being said, I fully acknowldge that this could've been better co-ordinated. In retrospect - we could have used two of us - one for the 1BC and inter-team stuff, and one here polling and keeping folks informed. (and there is still Vox Controli to think about ...)

Anyways - live and learn. Here's my post:

"OK - serious stuff here. We need to decide between:

1.
Civ Name: Apolyton
Noun: Apolytonians
Adjective: Apolytonian

or

2.
Civ Name: Apolyton
Noun: Apolytons
Adjective: Apolyton

#2 could also be called the Apolyton Empire if enough ask for it.

Also - the follwing are givens:

Leader Name: Markos
Leader Title: Emperor
Civ Color: Light Blue"

	17-02-2003 13:28									#26
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BetaHound, thank you so much for putting all this together. I believe that it is what everybody was asking for.

I would like to take this opportunity to say a big THANK YOU for all your efforts related to the ISDG.

I will use the information posted here to set up our ISDG InfoCentral, hopefully topping it once I get the mod powers from Markos.

Just a small addition/clarification:

The game is, AFAIK, supposed to flow pretty much like our own PtWDG. 24 hours max to play a turn for every team, utilizing something like our timecounter to keep average response times within four hours, considering green hours of course. However, this is still being discussed.

That would result in something like 24-36 hours real time per every full turn played. Much like what we play in our own PtWDG.

	17-02-2003 18:12									#27
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OK, there is now a special topped InfoCenter thread replacing this one. Unless I hear serious objections from many people (use PMs, not the forum, please - I do not want any public "discussion" here), I will DELETE this thread altogether in a couple of days. I do not feel like carrying this kind of stuff into the bright Apolyton ISDG Team future.

Thread closed.