17-02-2003 08:25									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I feel that it would be unethical to not terraform Mars. Assuming there are simple organisms on Mars, these poor buggers have no future. The atmosphere of Mars is slowly being reduced by the sun. Without intervention, they will more than likely die out completely, or remain as simple organisms without the chance to evolve into higher forms. In the (more likely) case that there is no life on Mars, what good is a prestine chunk of rock? Let life put it to use. As intelligent life, it is our duty to spread life where we can. We have the knowledge and ability to start terraforming Mars, and we should.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

	17-02-2003 08:49									#62
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"I think he's lost control of the thread, Captain!"

	17-02-2003 09:30									#63
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I was just thinking about how this is analogous to opposition to drilling in ANWR. There are some who believe it would be unethical to drill, considering that it is something like the last refuge from human meddling.

Nobody here has cast it in terms of what we create on Mars. Would it matter if all we're going to do is pave Mars and build strip malls?

	17-02-2003 10:37									#64
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Not to me it wouldn't. But ANWAR is a lush, tropical paradise just overfilled with life compared to Mars, so I'm not too sure the analogy holds.

	17-02-2003 10:39									#65
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What does it matter the amount of life? Would you fill in the Grand Canyon if it would benefit us economically?

	17-02-2003 10:44									#66
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From terraforming Mars, to drilling in ANWAR, to filling the Grand Canyon... you're all over the place here, Dan.

ANWAR has value to some people, as does the Grand Canyon. The political cost needed to do as you suggest to the previous two is quite prohibitive, a cost that would not exist in regards to a plan to terraform Mars. Now the financial cost, otoh.... that's a pretty penny.

	17-02-2003 10:47									#67
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The grand canyon is not devoid of life.
Now we're getting to the issue that I brought up earlier - aesthetic ethics, and the idea of leaing wilderness 'as is'. After all, without a wilderness, are we really Americans? The frontier-thesis and all that...

"Well yes, that's because they have much shorter life spans then humans. It still takes millions of generations (I really have no idea how many) for diseases to adapt, and that is the point I was making. Eco-systems evolve at the same sort of rate."
It takes many generations for adaptations to be acclimated in an entire species, but even within the space of a human lifetime, demographic changes in the populace can be seen. Notice, for example, how short people were 300 to 400 years ago. We consider Napoleon short, but in his time he wasn't all that much shorter than his peers.

	17-02-2003 10:48									#68
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It's the best I can do on a couple of beers.

Filling in the Grand Canyon is a good analogy. There is a value in the Canyon and it would seem unethical to me to fill it in, if it could be helped. And this is an inanimate object. Our first ethical objection wouldn't be about the life that resides there.

	17-02-2003 10:55									#69
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There is a symbolic value to the grand canyon - that is why. The more we destroy our environment, the more we destroy the distinctiveness of our nation, and the regions of it.
Hell, the only reason the South is different from the North anymore is worse food and more igni'nce!
Similarly, there is symbolic value to Mars. If we paved it over, we would lose some of the power of our mythologies, our histories, etc.

	17-02-2003 17:27									#70
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis It would be a total mess even without abstract and self-made concepts. System produced the "flaw" so the eco-system is flawed when it let's something like this (us) happen.

So you agree that we are "flawed" and not behaving naturaly. That is what I was saying, nothing more.

	17-02-2003 17:54									#71
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The only way it would be unethical is if there were whales living on Mars.

Hmm... radical environmentalists chaining themselves to the launchpad.

	17-02-2003 18:00									#72
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Well, once we develop the technology to make terraforming Mars practicable (like being able to get there in a few days) humans will use it. And probably screw the place up bigtime in the process.

That's no bad thing because the next planet we try to terraform will probably be in somone else's solar system so it would be better to make the mistakes in our own back yard first and learn from them.

	17-02-2003 19:40									#73
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Not to mention the fact that above what you said is not true, atleast not here in Finland. We do take care of our forests, and animals too.

Aren't you guys up to your eyeballs in moose, cause you
killed off ALL the wolves? And then finland was planning
on getting rid of the moose as a traffic hazard and
"damaging to the forest"

The day we can terraform a planet is the day we'll
understand how one works. Don't hold yer breath
on that one.

	17-02-2003 20:27									#74
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Sure, go ahead. But pray tell me this: How in god's name are you going to "create" carbon dioxide? There may be oxides in the soil, but I think that there is a deficit of carbon on Mars. This means that you're going to have to import carbon to Mars. Do we have that much to spare?
Has anyone given much thought as to whether mars is really able to hold a sufficient atmosphere? It is after all smaller than earth and has less gravity. How much carbon dioxide will it take to raise the atmospheric temperature to a habitable level? There is such a thing as too much carbon dioxide. If the level is too high your system can't efficiently excrete carbon dioxide from the lungs, which screws up your blood pH and reduces oxygen intake.

	17-02-2003 20:42									#75
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I think terraforming a planet (considering our current and near-future technologies) is either impossible, or would take a really really really long time. Either way, it would cost so much that I doubt we'd even try it.

	17-02-2003 20:48									#76
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I make a motion nominating the idea of transforming another planet, as the "Apolyton Goofy Idea Of The Year Award".

	17-02-2003 21:39									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld So you agree that we are "flawed" and not behaving naturaly. That is what I was saying, nothing more.

Yes but the word naturally doesn't have self importance for me. Nature is cruel, and the beaver is a selfish bastard like we are, maybe even more.

	17-02-2003 21:43									#78
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis the beaver is a selfish bastard like we are, maybe even more.

Don't let Ward see you postin' that

	17-02-2003 21:45									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Sure, go ahead. But pray tell me this: How in god's name are you going to "create" carbon dioxide? There may be oxides in the soil, but I think that there is a deficit of carbon on Mars. This means that you're going to have to import carbon to Mars. Do we have that much to spare? Has anyone given much thought as to whether mars is really able to hold a sufficient atmosphere? It is after all smaller than earth and has less gravity. How much carbon dioxide will it take to raise the atmospheric temperature to a habitable level? There is such a thing as too much carbon dioxide. If the level is too high your system can't efficiently excrete carbon dioxide from the lungs, which screws up your blood pH and reduces oxygen intake.

How about a artifical meteor shower from the asteriod
belt?

	17-02-2003 21:45									#80
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The day we can terraform a planet is the day we'll
understand how one works. Don't hold yer breath
on that one.

This is a good point. We would probably screw up the terraforming of Mars.

	17-02-2003 21:51									#81
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lets terraform Mars. Bacteria can't sue.

As for what we do on Mars: could we not find artifical ways of pumping the atmosphere with CO2? we can find Carbon there, and H2O, so how much expertise do we need to make CO2? Obviosuly hugeely expensive, but there would probably be even bigger challenges ahead.

The one thing we must be prepared for: really tall people: But terrans will, with their High G ways, always rule the solar system!

	17-02-2003 21:54									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz How about a artifical meteor shower from the asteriod belt?

What would that accomplish? Are asteroids chock-a-block rich in carbon dioxide, or are we just venting our frustration that the only other planet in our solar system that we ever had a hope of settling turns out to be unfixable?

	17-02-2003 21:54									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz Aren't you guys up to your eyeballs in moose, cause you killed off ALL the wolves? And then finland was planning on getting rid of the moose as a traffic hazard and "damaging to the forest" The day we can terraform a planet is the day we'll understand how one works. Don't hold yer breath on that one.

If your trying to convince me that we are not doing something wrong here, you fail.
Seems like our nature is doing fine without the wolves. Wolf is top of the chaing, providing nothing more than poop. Now some apolytoner will say "So wan't to kill all the humans too?" because he thinks he is being funny and original, but no I'd like to live thank you very much. There are however people who think all humans should die, because the planet will be better of.
I think we will never be able to terraform a planet, but IF we will then we should.

	17-02-2003 22:01									#84
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Aren't there too much carbon on our planet? Somewhere on the soil? On some form, I can't even remember which. With todays methods it will be impossible to mine it and transport too, but in theory aren't there plenty?

	17-02-2003 22:16									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove What would that accomplish? Are asteroids chock-a-block rich in carbon dioxide, or are we just venting our frustration that the only other planet in our solar system that we ever had a hope of settling turns out to be unfixable?

Chock full of ice and rocks, and they'll warm things up
on impact. Their is enough out there to build a small planet. We could make Mars bigger.

I not an expert but i believe they are also carbon rich.

	17-02-2003 22:22									#86
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Seems like our nature is doing fine without the wolves. Wolf is top of the chaing, providing nothing more than poop.

Population and diease control of the Moose population.

Finns are top of the chain.

There is a lot of carbon stored in the earths soil, we
use it as fuel.

	17-02-2003 22:26									#87
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Nono, I don't mean fuel, It was something CO4 or something, not CO2 of course but something else. Hard to explaing when I can't even remember what the stuff was called in finnish language.

	17-02-2003 23:38									#88
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Heat limestone, you get CO2

	17-02-2003 23:42									#89
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There aren't any froms of sentient life on Mars, so as Boris said, ethics aren't relevant.

	17-02-2003 23:43									#90
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" This means that you're going to have to import carbon to Mars. Do we have that much to spare? "

Ok - on the count of three, we all breathe heavily in the direction of Mars!!!