17-02-2003 02:42									#1
	If possible, would terraforming Mars be ethical? Increase the size of your Attachments

Lots of water found on Mars, but not much carbon dioxide. However, assuming that it were possible to create the necessary carbon dioxide, would terraforming Mars be ethical, or would leaving it be as nature created it be better?

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...l-lam021303.php

Edit: The hypothetical includes the assumption that there are simple organisms on Mars that are unique to Mars.

Last edited by DanS on 17-02-2003 at 02:58

	17-02-2003 02:45									#2
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There's nothing living on Mars. Ethics don't really concern non-living objects...

	17-02-2003 02:48									#3
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Boris, you assume the present state.
Dan is asking a question of prospects.
You also assume nothing living. All we know is, nothing we know by our experience.

I vote "no". Better things to do.

	17-02-2003 02:50									#4
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Slow: So you have a sliding scale of ethics, where priorities have to be set, and other good objectives would be sacrificed?

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Mars terraforming would be beneficial for the economic well-being of Earthlings.

Boris: Are you making a distinction between transforming living things and transforming non-living things?

Let's assume for the sake of argument that there are some simple living things on Mars, like one-celled organisms.

	17-02-2003 02:51									#5
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I say terraform. And if the Martians don't like it, let them all go back where they came from.

	17-02-2003 02:54									#6
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Boris, you assume the present state.

What other state should I presume? He's asking if it would be ethical to terraform Mars as it is, I imagine.

quote: Dan is asking a question of prospects.

And how didn't my answer address that question?

quote: You also assume nothing living. All we know is, nothing we know by our experience.

Our scientific knowledge is enough for us to assume there is no life on Mars. If there by chance is, it would have to be on the level of microbes. Ethics still wouldn't apply, as we accept the disposal of microbes as a natural part of our existence.

quote: I vote "no". Better things to do.

Even in the context that Earth is full/environmentally ravaged, it may be the only option for survival of the human race?

	17-02-2003 02:54									#7
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I don't see anything unethical about it, not that that necessarily makes it wise or easy. I just read an article a few days ago that says that terraforming is now considered more difficult because Martian polar regions have been found to contain ice, not frozen carbon dioxide. Turns out there's a lot less CO2 on Mars than was originally thought.

	17-02-2003 02:54									#8
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I guess I'll just go with Zkribbler.
Move the Martians onto reservations.
Odd that we could consider messing with another planet as ok, but not another country.

	17-02-2003 02:56									#9
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Odd that we could consider messing with another planet as ok, but not another country.

Are you serious? Need we explain the difference to you between a living and non-living object?

	17-02-2003 02:57									#10
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Read my addition to the hypothetical. Simple living organisms exist on Mars that are unique to Mars. This follows an "abundant life" model.

	17-02-2003 02:59									#11
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It's very ethical, since it will allow more people to live decent lives worldwide.

We can use CFCs, and PFCs to create the greenhouse effect to heat the planet, however if CO2 will be missing it will be tough to grow anything..

What's the composition of the soil, as we know, so far?

	17-02-2003 03:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Read my addition to the hypothetical. Simple living organisms exist on Mars.

Already answered.

And why wouldn't anyone make the distinction between a living and non-living thing?

I have in my hand a glass. If I so chose, I could drop to the floor and smash it to a thousand pieces. Would that be unethical (assuming it's not anyone else's property)?

	17-02-2003 03:02									#13
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And why wouldn't anyone make the distinction between a living and non-living thing?

Why would anyone?

	17-02-2003 03:03									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DanS And why wouldn't anyone make the distinction between a living and non-living thing? Why would anyone?

See my example. Why would ethics apply to an inanimate object?

	17-02-2003 03:06									#15
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Truth be known, Boris, and I say this with love in my heart Boris, is looking at this from an arrogant Earthling point-of-view.
What is life, per his detetermination.
Is the plan then to just abandon Earth, for Mars?
How about spending the bucks correcting our mistakes here.
Man. What a concept.

	17-02-2003 03:08									#16
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* Grrr!! burns down Boris Godunov's house.

Oh ... but it doesn't matter that all your things are destroyed ... they're inanimate objects .

	17-02-2003 03:10									#17
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Truth be known, Boris, and I say this with love in my heart Boris, is looking at this from an arrogant Earthling point-of-view.

Dodge the questions, as usual. Why would it be unethical to do something, even something to destructive, to an inanimate object that nobody created or owns?

And if you're so concerned with the fates of microbes, I assume you object to doctors curing diseases? Or walking and breathing, since those very actions kill micro-organisms all the time?

Hey, if you want to stop breathing to save the microbes, be my guest!

	17-02-2003 03:11									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Grrr * Grrr!! burns down Boris Godunov's house. Oh ... but it doesn't matter that all your things are destroyed ... they're inanimate objects .

Read next time:

quote: I have in my hand a glass. If I so chose, I could drop to the floor and smash it to a thousand pieces. Would that be unethical (assuming it's not anyone else's property)?

You'll save us all time that way.

	17-02-2003 03:11									#19
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Dan,

I think it's ethical to terraform Mars, and most likely practical as well.

On the other hand, it would be helpful to set up some sort of independent biolocigal survey team that goes in before the builders to identify life there.

	17-02-2003 03:13									#20
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Boris: I'm interested in Sloww's opinion that we should fix what we've fvcked up on Earth before fvcking up other worlds. Are we to be a scourge on the universe, trying to compensate for a fundamental human failing, rather than respectful of what has been created?

This is more a discussion point rather than a debating point. I'm interested in hearing what people think.

	17-02-2003 03:15									#21
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Unethical if there is specific lifeforms. A terraforming would kill them, and I doubt we could ever make reservations for them.
If we can preserve some specimens of these lifeforms, then I'd go for ethical, unless there is intelligent life on Mars (which seems very unlikely)

	17-02-2003 03:17									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Boris: I'm interested in Sloww's opinion that we should fix what we've fvcked up on Earth before fvcking up other worlds. Are we to be a scourge on the universe, trying to compensate for a fundamental human failing, rather than respectful of what has been created?

If Earth isn't beyond repair, then naturally we should be trying to fix it rather than just abandoning it. I don't see why terraforming Mars would preclude us from fixing things here. In fact, it may be part of the answer, as it would help solve the population problems arising around the world. If the human race is going to keep reproducing and increasing lifespans, we will need somewhere to expand, I imagine.

Why should we be respectful to a barren rock? Why is it not even more respectful to transform it into a planet teeming with life? Who are we respecting, anyway?

More to the point, if terraforming Mars were our ONLY hope, I doubt anyone would be objecting to attempting to terraform it for our use.

	17-02-2003 03:18									#23
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No, I would say it is not ethical because being able to terraform and colonize other planets means that we do not have to be responsible for the space we inhabit.

Also, I do not really think there is such a thing as a dead planet.

	17-02-2003 03:19									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Dodge the questions, as usual. Why would it be unethical to do something, even something to destructive, to an inanimate object that nobody created or owns? And if you're so concerned with the fates of microbes, I assume you object to doctors curing diseases? Or walking and breathing, since those very actions kill micro-organisms all the time? Hey, if you want to stop breathing to save the microbes, be my guest!

This is directly related to other disagreements we have.
So, there is little chance we'll agree on this either.
Which is fine.

	17-02-2003 03:20									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld No, I would say it is not ethical because being able to terraform and colonize other planets means that we do not have to be responsible for the space we inhabit.

By this logic, mankind shouldn't have ever roamed out of Central Africa. Expansion is a human necessity. We will have to go somewhere. Why not to a nearby neighbor where currently there isn't anything?

quote: Also, I do not really think there is such a thing as a dead planet.

Oh come on. Think about that and get back to us.

	17-02-2003 03:22									#26
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand This is directly related to other disagreements we have.

I can't think of any argument we have had in the past that remotely related to this. Is that just another dodge?

	17-02-2003 03:27									#27
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No, Boris. It's not a dodge.
You don't believe in God, I do.
You don't think that life is possible, I do.
That's all I'm saying.

Please, don't anyone report me to a Moderator, simply because I don't agree. This isn't to you specifically, Boris.

	17-02-2003 03:28									#28
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Yes, it would be ethical to terraform Mars, even if there were microbes. Mars doesn't recieve enough energy from the Sun to sustain a full-blown ecosystem, and those microbes have no future. Mars, for all intents and purposes, is a dead planet.

Were it a planet with a full biosphere without sentient beings, ala Earth 30,000,000 years ago, that'd be a different question. I somehow think it'd depend upon the planet and what was wrong with it. But, regardless of whether there's an active effort to terraform or we just plop down some settlers, I think Earth forms will still largely take over because they will have the support of the only sentient creatures on the planet.

	17-02-2003 03:29									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov By this logic, mankind shouldn't have ever roamed out of Central Africa.

Not neccisarily. But I'd agree with that, too.

quote: Oh come on. Think about that and get back to us.

The universe is constantly changing, in ways far beyond human perception or comprehension. Earth once had no life, it now has life, and it will eventually have no life again. It will eventually deteriorate, and it's matter will form new stars, galaxies, planets, and new life. Terraforming and colonizing planets interferes with the workings of the universe. It is the galactic equivelant of cutting down rainforests and paving over swamps.

	17-02-2003 03:32									#30
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Boris: You're being a little strident in your posts. Again, this is meant to be an opinion survey thread, not a debating thread. That's why it's a poll.