18-02-2003 21:35									#61
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Slowwhand, comprehension problem:

"Look at any day's postings"

We were talking about newspaper reports and opinion pieces. That's why Buck asked for "columns", not poly "postings".

	18-02-2003 21:38									#62
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HershOstropoler Settler

	18-02-2003 21:42									#63
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Well, that's what I am....

	18-02-2003 21:45									#64
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Ok, Hershy. Look at any day's newspaper.

	18-02-2003 21:54									#65
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France and Germany whining.
Brits blubbering about Bush leading Blair down the wrong path.
Moron peaceniks in the USA, thinking this is a Bush/Blair problem.
U.N. advocates, ignoring that Iraq today is the direct result of their dumbassness (Is that a word? It is now.)

Ad nauseum.

	18-02-2003 22:00									#66
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Ok, Hershy. Look at any day's newspaper.

Ok, SlowwHead.

The issue was antiamerican vitriol in european newspapers comparable to the level of antieuropean vitriol in american papers.

Read it a couple of times. Try to get it.

Then show me european newspapers with such content. I offered 3 links in this thread. Try them.

	18-02-2003 22:06									#67
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I get it. You're wrong.

	18-02-2003 22:08									#68
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Sure, never get detracted by facts. Enjoy your happy little fantasyland as long as it lasts.

	18-02-2003 22:32									#69
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What Vel said.

Oh, and yeah, the stuff quoted in the Guardian article, while certainly over-the-top, was pulled from columnists & editorials, etc. Print media's equivalent to "shock jocks" on radio. If that stuff was popping up in regular news stories, then I'd be appalled.

I can't think of examples of that type of garbage from opinion pieces accross the pond, but stories that are labelled as "news" (as opposed to "opinion") often have a heavy anti-US slant (particularly in publications such as The Guardian ). I think it was Roland I was discussing that with... Euros seem to want some opinion in their news, we tend to try and leave that for the editorials/columnists.

-Arrian

	18-02-2003 22:43									#70
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That separation leads to a wide gap between news and opinion and allows opinion pieces that are just moronic. An opinionated presentation of the facts usually does not and cannot go that far.

Also, the separation is pretty much theoretical anyway. The simple decision on what to report and how already includes a bias; also news from not neutral sources transports an opinion anyway.

	18-02-2003 22:48									#71
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I think it works surprisingly well. Distinguish between editorial, opinion, analysis and straight news. Most mainline US newspapers have been labeling their news like this for 5 or 10 years and it has been quite successful. (Everything except straight news is labeled.)

	18-02-2003 23:23									#72
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We like it our way, they like it their way. *shrug*

I like news articles that at least try to be impartial accounts of the facts. It's true that one cannot possibly remove all bias, since some of it isn't even deliberate/concious bias, but I want it at least attempted. Please note that this is why I cannot watch any of the network news broadcasts without changing the channel in disgust.

-Arrian

	18-02-2003 23:25									#73
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quote: That separation leads to a wide gap between news and opinion and allows opinion pieces that are just moronic. An opinionated presentation of the facts usually does not and cannot go that far.

On the other hand, one is specifically forwarned by the publication when an article is labelled "Opinion" or "Editorial." So if you read the article and encounter a steaming pile of crap, well, you shouldn't be all that surprised.

Presenting opinion as "news" is, IMO, telling people how to think.

-Arrian

	18-02-2003 23:35									#74
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"I like news articles that at least try to be impartial accounts of the facts."

What's the result? The NY Times often has a lot of "government sources say..." stuff. It sometimes reads like the inofficial journal of the government. Transporting it as "the government sources say" is undoubtedly correct, but it's not what I expect as a news selection.

"Presenting opinion as "news" is, IMO, telling people how to think."

Every paper has its "line" that the reader knows. So there's no need to label all individual pieces, while there is a separate commentary section.

	18-02-2003 23:54									#75
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To each his own.

-Arrian

	18-02-2003 23:55									#76
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To each his own, indeed.

I just wonder why polls show that a large junk of the US public believes that there were (many?) Iraqis among the 9/11 terrorists. Is that all down to the TV networks?

	18-02-2003 23:56									#77
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quote: a large junk of the US public believes

What a fortunate typo.

	18-02-2003 23:57									#78
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What polls?

	18-02-2003 23:58									#79
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I saw one recently that said that. Something like 30% IIRC. Don't quote me on that, though...

	18-02-2003 23:59									#80
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Why does everyone in 'poly land always quote the Gauardian or some other tabloid level publication? Everyone knows the Guardian is junk and should be ignored. It's not the only paper (national review and several other rightist papers are equally biased) but it is the one I see popping up here the most.

	19-02-2003 00:00									#81
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That seems to be what everyone says. I'd actually like to see the poll for myself though.

	19-02-2003 00:02									#82
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No offence but you're not worth wasting 30 secs to find a link

	19-02-2003 00:02									#83
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I don't blame you.

	19-02-2003 00:03									#84
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Hah. Xpost.

	19-02-2003 00:05									#85
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Bloody anglo homonyms.

I'd say the Guardian is a chunk of paper....

	19-02-2003 00:21									#86
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 No offence but you're not worth wasting 30 secs to find a link

Of course not paiktis22, I don't blame you. Here are the facts.

GDP 1990 data

-US $5.5 trillion
-Germany $1.5 trillion
-France (well smaller than Germany)

Of course there are up to date numbers, but then why bother since our economy did much better than Germany and Frances in the 90s.

	19-02-2003 00:30									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK Of course not paiktis22, I don't blame you. Here are the facts. GDP 1990 data -US $5.5 trillion -Germany $1.5 trillion -France (well smaller than Germany) Of course there are up to date numbers, but then why bother since our economy did much better than Germany and Frances in the 90s.

What is this in response to?

	19-02-2003 00:37									#88
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That goes in the other thread. Oops.

	19-02-2003 00:39									#89
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I'm begining to think you people are pulling this "mysterious" ( ) poll out of your collective arses.

	19-02-2003 00:41									#90
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wow, I am like the EU spillover effect