18-02-2003 09:40									#1
	Should we send a suicidal unit to Graz? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We dont know how many units there are in Graz but i sure would like to know what is in it!

We could do that by sending a suicidal unit to attack it. But can we afford the loss of a unit? Is the cost/benefit good enough?

I'd you to answer

	18-02-2003 16:21									#2
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I must remind you that the warrrior shall only be sent once we have almost all the attack force!

	18-02-2003 17:38									#3
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how would you define "almost"?
at the moment (at least the next 3 turns) we shouldn't waste a unit, to get info, we won't benefit from much. later that might be different. though of course, if we walk to graz with a really big stack anyways, we can use one extra warrior in the field nevertheless, be it simple for keeping order in graz, when our troops march to wien or pilsen

	18-02-2003 18:20									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox how would you define "almost"?

When we have an army with good number of units (lets say 7 or 8) ready to attack fortified in H Town.

Sure not in the next three turn. But i see it in the next 7-15 turns

	18-02-2003 18:28									#5
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which would leave 5 or 6 units for the actual assault, the rest staying to defend h-town, against aggressors and unhappy people. i doubt that a stack of that size can take and hold! graz.

	18-02-2003 18:32									#6
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There doesn't seem to be any great rush to attack immediately.

I just don't want to go into Graz not knowing if we will win, given the stack we send. I'd like to know how many casualties are likely. I'd like to know if we can go relatively early... or if we need to consider delay.

I favor sending a suicide scout when we have an attack force of 10, but can optionally bring 2 extra troops to bring the attack force to 12, and replace those defenders whilst the attack is underway. We can also rethink should we feel the target is too well defended.

Sending in an attack force blind, when we have no real basis for knowing how well defended this city is, is not wise. The cost of 150 shields is well worth it, in my opinion.

	18-02-2003 18:37									#7
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it might be worth it, when we have that size 12 stack plus reliable defenses in our hometowns, and even better plus a few replacement units, that can march on.

	18-02-2003 18:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Zaphod Beeblebrox which would leave 5 or 6 units for the actual assault, the rest staying to defend h-town, against aggressors and unhappy people. i doubt that a stack of that size can take and hold! graz.

I meant 7-8 units in the army + at least 2 other in H Town.

Therefore 9 units in H Town: 4 from Pressburg (1 from prod: 5 tuns), 4 from H Town (1 from Prod: 1 turn) and at least 1 from Pedrunnia (send after having the archer built: 3 turns).
From the 4 units in H Town we keep 2 guarding it. And still have a army size 7 (8 if we send 2 from Pedrunnia). That was the time to send the suicidal warrior (It did not made part of the mayh above).
If people say we shouldnt send. We can wait some more to make a even bigger army what will take about + 10 turns to be created

At the time of the possible army 7/8 creation we will have the following defenses:
Pressburg - 2
H Town - 2
Pedrunnia - 4 (one could be sent to be part of the army too)
Colonia Locuta - 3
mapfipolis - 2

	18-02-2003 18:53									#9
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We are polling desired garrison sizes, as we speak. Arbitrary guesses at such things are bad ideas: E.G. should we garrison Mapfipolis more heavily since it is somewhat exposed, and would be at the point of a German invasion.

	18-02-2003 18:55									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins There doesn't seem to be any great rush to attack immediately.

I thought it is a good idea to have Graz conquered soon. After Graz we could think about wels but i dont see another attack in the next 20 turns (i am not saying it is impossible)

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins I favor sending a suicide scout when we have an attack force of 10, but can optionally bring 2 extra troops to bring the attack force to 12, and replace those defenders whilst the attack is underway. We can also rethink should we feel the target is too well defended.

Exacly! I do think the suicidal scout is a good idea although i abstained (still got my doubts)!

	18-02-2003 19:33									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins We are polling desired garrison sizes, as we speak. Arbitrary guesses at such things are bad ideas: E.G. should we garrison Mapfipolis more heavily since it is somewhat exposed, and would be at the point of a German invasion.

Nothing personal but i dont like you polls about the issue. I understand they are for long term investments but they seem a little off when comes to actually being acording to our current reality.
They miss context.

Although the discussion here is something to keep up!

	18-02-2003 19:42									#12
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My issue is a MoDA one: the army cannot function effectively without MoDA providing its troops.

In addition to MoD needs, as soon as we can start to develop economic infrastructure, we should do so. We cannot do so until we at least have adequate garrisons. These polls are the only way to definitively decide the garrison levels. Using discussion threads with lists of garrison sizes, will never come to a conclusion. We need a poll for each city.

	18-02-2003 23:37									#13
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IMO the Warrior and its "2 tiles vision" range is too valuable to be used in a suicidal attack. We should send him around H Tower and Pressburg into the Austrian territory in order to scout the area and spot any incoming ennemy army. If the Warrior does not spot anything it means we can let a token garrison in H Town and Pressburg and launch an attack against Graz with almost all our available units (the token garrison would be the units Pedrunn listed in his post). The warrior could also be used as a raider and could help kill some Austrian archers, settlers or TI. We should use the "2 tiles vision" range of the Warrior to augment its life expectancy, we move him one tile and if he spots an ennemy two tiles away he can step back and go back to garrison a city. Alternatively, he could be used to delay an attack on a weak target for one turn which could help send reinforcement to the supposed target.

To sum up: the warrior should not be sent in a suicide attack he is too valuable for scouting purposes.

	19-02-2003 00:15									#14
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The warrior is only as valuable as 150 production. No more. No less.

Another, just like it, can be made in 2 turns in either H Town or Pedrunnia.

The information, as to how many casualties, we will sustain in an attack will be far more valuable to our nation than the loss. It lets us time OR delay our attack.

We neglect to consider that a 12 stack may be annihilated: we are facing a technically superior foe. Should they have invested in catapaults and built any to defend Graz, and have any sizable defensive force in addition, the attack could indeed result in a total loss.

A 1950 production risk, in effect.

Units should not be carelessly wasted, but being technically inferior means that we HAVE to have information before committing seriously to such tasks.

MrBaggins

	19-02-2003 02:08									#15
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I agree with mr baggins, if the warrior scouts the city first then we might be able to find the best situation, i think losing one warrior(150) instead of a 12 stack(1950) is worth it. maybe graz have a 12 stack in it and its going to counter our offenses. thats just a possibility but my point stands. We need that information before we decide the best action toward this war.

	19-02-2003 02:19									#16
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I think it might be prudent to check the defences first, just make sure our stack is ready to attack as soon as we know how big a defence Graz has, or to run away as the case may be(we might need two stacks!). I'm sure that famous chinese general(Tzun Tze?) had something to say about knowing how strong your enemy was before attacking?

	19-02-2003 02:23									#17
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Yes might be a good idea - we might need more than one stack! and the small loss is better than a huge one that could cost us a city or two

Edit: bl**@y dbl post thingie