18-02-2003 18:58									#31
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If you remove veto powers, Israel will probably leave the UN and start blackmailing the world that if troops are sent in Palestine, it will nuke everybody.

	18-02-2003 20:02									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Why not including the commonwealth? They've got us (another G8 country) the Australians (almost as big) and then some more tenuous links with India, Pakistan and the African countries...

Not that the UK always represent your interest there, kitty cat.

	18-02-2003 20:04									#33
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I measure welth by the amount of red buses a country has

If you use double decker per capita, I bet we have more here.

quote: Originally posted by TheStinger We have invaded,colonised and fought with most of the world, so we have many links

Yeah, but just look at those Aussies and Canaucks have been taking opposing positions.

	18-02-2003 20:32									#34
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The five permanent members are still the five most powerful nations on the planet in terms of military strength and influence in the world. Any change in the makeup of the permanents would therefore have to address regionality, not any changes in relative power.

	18-02-2003 20:34									#35
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The security counsel is really the enforcement arm of the UN. These seats should be held by the principal powers capable of doing that (eithier through diplomatic or military means).

Given this combination, I believe that the current scenario is correct.

The security counsel was able to survive a division during the cold war and it will survive this one.

The reason that the veto power was given was not only to get the major powers in, but also to ensure that there would be lively debate before strong punitive action was taken against a soverign country. This is exactly what is happening. If a consensus is reached, then action can procede with the blessing of the world.
If a consensus is not reached and veto power is exercised, than countries can still procede with unilateral or limited multilateral action. There will be a political price to pay for this however. This is how it should be.

	18-02-2003 20:34									#36
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If the status is based on great power what about the most powerful corporations, shoudl they not get a seat and a veto, and the Illuminati, of course.

	18-02-2003 20:39									#37
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 The security counsel is really the enforcement arm of the UN. These seats should be held by the principal powers capable of doing that (eithier through diplomatic or military means). Given this combination, I believe that the current scenario is correct.

I am inclined to agree but have this image in my mind of the chamber empty except for the US ambassador. The UK representative is standing behind the US and looking vaguely embarrassed. The French ambassador is standing in the corridor smoking a cigarette. The rest of the building is empty.

Yes, I admit to cynicism.

	18-02-2003 22:12									#38
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I say I get a personal Veto. I'd use it nearly as much as the Americans!

	18-02-2003 23:27									#39
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quote: If the status is based on great power what about the most powerful corporations, shoudl they not get a seat and a veto, and the Illuminati, of course.

Corporations already there (see American political system)

Illuminati already there (see American President's family)

	19-02-2003 00:10									#40
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I think we should kick off the US - they just parot everything the UK does, following along like little puppy dogs.

	19-02-2003 00:11									#41
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Hey - My first ever DP!

	19-02-2003 00:36									#42
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quote: If you remove veto powers, Israel will probably leave the UN and start blackmailing the world that if troops are sent in Palestine, it will nuke everybody.

What a random out-of-left-field ME troll. Trying to spice up the thread, Axi?

-Arrian

	19-02-2003 01:23									#43
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To get back on topic...

I would like to see this arrangement.

USA
China
Russia
Japan
India
Brazil
Germany (or an EU elected rep)
South Africa (or an OAU elected rep)
an Arab state (maybe a democratic Iraq?)

Those nine states will make up the entire Security Council. There would be only permanent seats.

Also, it would be best to get rid of the veto, as Frogger said. However, AH was right to say that it will never happen. Maybe it will become possible farther into the future, but we should concentrate on making the membership of the Security Council more representative right now...

	19-02-2003 01:26									#44
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Japan, Russia and China each gets one but Europe as a whole only gets 1?

A bit wonky, that.

All SC positions elected by the regional delegates. Distribute according to pop of regions in question.

	19-02-2003 01:32									#45
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quote: Japan, Russia and China each gets one but Europe as a whole only gets 1? A bit wonky, that.

Why? Europe is on par power-wise with China and Russia and not that far ahead of Japan. Why does Europe merit more than one representative?

	19-02-2003 01:38									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Japan, Russia and China each gets one but Europe as a whole only gets 1? A bit wonky, that. Why? Europe is on par power-wise with China and Russia and not that far ahead of Japan. Why does Europe merit more than one representative?

Perhaps because, unlike the Japanese, most of the European countries are allowed by their constitutions to deploy fighting and peacekeeping forces overseas.

No country that isn't willing and able to supply the military muscle should be on such a security council (that is not a comment on the current set up by the way).

	19-02-2003 01:38									#47
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Japan has a pop of what, 125 million?

Germany alone has 80 million. France and the UK have 60 each. You're already up to 200 million. Now add in Spain's 40, Italy's 55 or 60, the little dipshits of western europe etc. and you've got a 1st-world pop of 320? 350? million. Giving Russia one, China one and Japan one is just silly. Creates this odd power blip in NE asia.

Japan doesn't wield close to as much power, influence or economic weight as western Europe does.

	19-02-2003 01:49									#48
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quote: Perhaps because, unlike the Japanese, most of the European countries are allowed by their constitutions to deploy fighting and peacekeeping forces overseas.

Japan is allowed to deploy peacekeeping forces. They've sent troops to UN peacekeeping missions in Cambodia.

quote: Japan doesn't wield close to as much power, influence or economic weight as western Europe does.

You're treating Western Europe like it's a collective whole. It is not and therefore does not function as a first rate world power. Japan may have a smaller population and economy than "Europe", but its greater unity and policy focus allows it to approach Europe in real-world influence. Its overwhelming pacifism is the only thing really holding it out of the first-tier of world powers...

At any rate, I don't think Europe deserves more than one representative. Even if they were to form a "United States of Europe", they still wouldn't be so powerful as to merit more than one Security Council rep. I don't see anyone pushing for America to get a second vote on the council...

	19-02-2003 01:51									#49
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quote: Japan may have a smaller population and economy than "Europe", but its greater unity and policy focus allows it to approach Europe in real-world influence

Not really.

	19-02-2003 01:51									#50
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Veto power must be maintained. This power keeps powerblocks from developing that could begin to control the UN and make it eithier irrelevant or, worse yet, an institution of radicalism

	19-02-2003 01:52									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Japan has a pop of what, 125 million? Germany alone has 80 million. France and the UK have 60 each. You're already up to 200 million. Now add in Spain's 40, Italy's 55 or 60, the little dipshits of western europe etc. and you've got a 1st-world pop of 320? 350? million. Giving Russia one, China one and Japan one is just silly. Creates this odd power blip in NE asia.

Your right.....Plus, you can't agree on one country being the representative, how could you ever agree on what the representative should represent?

	19-02-2003 01:57									#52
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quote: Not really.

Nice response. I'm glad I wasted my time writing a serious response to your comments...

	19-02-2003 02:00									#53
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Oh, and the members should be as follows:

Germany
Russia
China
India
US
Brazil
Australia

	19-02-2003 02:00									#54
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Japan influences almost no military power in the world. First off is their pacifism, secondly is the fact that nobody would let them.
Diplo influence is similarly stunted.

This, by the way is why UK+France makes more sense than Germany+Either

Finally, euros have a common market to greater extent than any other significant region. They have common fiduciary policy, common currency, the beginnings of a unified budget...

Good God, this stuff is obvious. Japan doesn't do crap in international affairs. It keeps its head down, and that's about it.

	19-02-2003 02:04									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Oh, and the members should be as follows: Germany Russia China India US Brazil Australia

Why Germany and Australia?

	19-02-2003 02:05									#56
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You still haven't provided a good reason why Europe should have more than one representative. You've decided to try and prove that Europe has more influence than Japan, something I agreed with in my initial response to you. Why don't you deal with the real issue? Why should Europe get two reps? There's no good reason for it...

	19-02-2003 02:10									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why Germany and Australia?

Germany - So France can whine about it. Is there not a better reason? (Actually, so that there is more balance in Europe)

Australia = To give Oceania SOME representation.

	19-02-2003 02:13									#58
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quote: Germany - So France can whine about it. Is there not a better reason?

You're right. There is no better reason...

	19-02-2003 02:26									#59
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quote: Originally posted by axi If you remove veto powers, Israel will probably leave the UN and start blackmailing the world that if troops are sent in Palestine, it will nuke everybody.

Good point.

Let's nuke Israel instead now, just preemptively. Wouldn't this put an end to many problems?

	19-02-2003 02:39									#60
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A German blaming the world's problems on Israel and advocating the complete destruction of the Jewish state? I never thought I'd see the day...