18-02-2003 17:19									#1
	UN Security Council Reform: Who should be the Permanent Members and have the vetoe? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This is an issue that has been around for while.

The current permanent members of the UN Security Council are basically the victorious allies of World War II - US, Russia, France, Britain and China.

Its argued from time to time that this group does not represent global realities - Japan and Germany, who lost the war, are not permanent members but very powerful countries. Japan has the second largest economy in the world. Germany is the dominant economy in Europe. Both are member of the G8 (along with Canada).

Arguments are also made for countries like India and Brazil on the basis of regional balance - South Africa or Nigeria have been mentioned in this regard.

There are 2 basic approaches to reform - kick some countries off (difficult) or add some (less difficult but still hard). You could argue Europe should only have one seat - for the EU.

I'm sure we can settle this here

	18-02-2003 17:20									#2
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No permanent seats, no vetoes.

	18-02-2003 17:20									#3
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we will veto any attempt to remove our veto

	18-02-2003 17:22									#5
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If you remove the vetoe, the whole thing stops working. That was the price of getting the great powers in.

	18-02-2003 17:22									#6
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Veto.

No "e"

Vetoes

With an "e"

	18-02-2003 17:27									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Veto. No "e" Vetoes With an "e"

Veto Votes ? Voting to veto ? Vetoing a vote ?

	18-02-2003 17:28									#8
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Yes.

	18-02-2003 17:28									#9
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The vetoe is really a question for another thread. And its not seriously debated.

But permanent membership is a live issue and will become more so if the permanent members divide over Iraq.

	18-02-2003 17:29									#10
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There should be one country from each continent. Or should there?

	18-02-2003 17:30									#11
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I believe the permanent members consist of those with the most nukes/aircraft carriers. Which is of course an entirley fair way of distributing power

	18-02-2003 17:33									#12
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Kick the Brits off. Add a country from South America. Perhaps one from Africa.

	18-02-2003 17:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo There should be one country from each continent. Or should there?

Its one approach that has been suggested.

But then Australia gets a seat and that would look slightly ridiculous

	18-02-2003 17:37									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Kick the Brits off. Add a country from South America. Perhaps one from Africa.

Depending on how you measure these things we are the 2nd richest country of the five, we have links with more countries than any other member and we aren't French so we should stay.

	18-02-2003 17:41									#15
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Only if you ask nicely.

	18-02-2003 17:44									#16
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Depending on how you measure these things we are the 2nd richest country of the five, we have links with more countries than any other member and we aren't French so we should stay.

But there is no difference in the Brit position and the US position. Besides:

Wealth - depends. What do you measure with?
Links - not including the Commonwealth, what links do you have?

	18-02-2003 17:46									#17
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Why not including the commonwealth?

They've got us (another G8 country) the Australians (almost as big) and then some more tenuous links with India, Pakistan and the African countries...

	18-02-2003 17:48									#18
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quote: But then Australia gets a seat and that would look slightly ridiculous

Why it would look ridiculous? What's so funny with crocodile dundee in a suit... ok, gotcha.

	18-02-2003 17:48									#19
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One seat for the EU?

We'd never be able to agree which country would provide the representative.

	18-02-2003 17:49									#20
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Should the permanents be voted on periodically?

Japan has a very strong case to be made permanent. Its hard for Germany to make a case with Britain and France already there.

	18-02-2003 17:50									#21
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Not including the commonwealth? Why?

That's like saying without counting half your marbles, how many marbles do you have?

	18-02-2003 17:51									#22
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Lets have

The US
China
India
Europe

There has to be some representation for South America and Africa, but i don't see any one country that could represent their interests.
Org. of African states and the equivalent South American org. perhaps ?

	18-02-2003 17:57									#23
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Not including the commonwealth? Why?

So we can get The Queen along to spice up Security Council sessions?

She could appoint Prince Philip her UN Ambassador and he'd have world war III started in a matter of days.

	18-02-2003 17:59									#24
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Wouldn't you want your head of state represented?

	18-02-2003 18:01									#25
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Two thoughts.

If you give a permanent seat to the African Union then Gaddaffi might end up sitting on a Security Council session. That would be interesting!

If the UN doesn't back war with Iraq the US will be halfway out the door. So who gets the vacant seat that would leave (not that it would be worth having as the UN will be irrelevant).

	18-02-2003 18:01									#26
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I'd like to see Betty Windsor there, her tiara tinkling.

	18-02-2003 18:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger But there is no difference in the Brit position and the US position. Besides: Wealth - depends. What do you measure with? Links - not including the Commonwealth, what links do you have?

Thers no differnce at the moment there might be in the future.

I measure welth by the amount of red buses a country has

We have invaded,colonised and fought with most of the world, so we have many links

	18-02-2003 18:04									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse So we can get The Queen along to spice up Security Council sessions? She could appoint Prince Philip her UN Ambassador and he'd have world war III started in a matter of days.

That would something to see.

	18-02-2003 18:25									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse If you remove the vetoe, the whole thing stops working. That was the price of getting the great powers in.

It has already stopped working Mister Ed.

	18-02-2003 18:29									#30
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Without veto, one powerful country can bribe the others. With the vetoes, one powerful country doesnt even need to bribez the others...