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Dominae
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Hi all,
A nice aspect of the Strat forum here on 'Poly is the willingness of "veterans" to help out the "beginners". This usually involves constructive comments on a posted screenshot or savegame. However, I've noticed (being here in force since last September) that the veterans eventually tire of giving out advice, since the same things get said from newbie to newbie (sorry for the condescending terminology...I mean nothing by it). So, newcomers sometimes get the short end of the "advice stick", simply because the experts are not interested in repeating themselves all the time.
I myself make no claims to being an "expert", but I do give out my fair share of advice, and so feel this thread is justified.
SO, here is my "top ten" list of tips that newer players need to learn about. Put another way, if you're still confused about how to beat Emperor or Deity, here are the tricks that will put you beyond Regent/Monarch.
1. Micro-manage your Workers
By this, I do not mean "do not leave them on auto-improve", I mean make sure you know exactly what every Worker is doing before 10AD, and how each city is directly benefitting from this. Try not to improve tiles that you will not be using in the near-future. Look into the city view to see in how many turns that city will grow, and compare that to know the time-to-completion of Worker actions. Mentally plan ahead the next ten or so turns to see where your Workers would be most useful. Seems like a lot of work, but it is worth it.
2. Place your cities closer together
Cold truth: if you're placing your cities so that there's is no workable-tile overlap, you're less effective than a player who packs them in tighter. There is still an ongoing debate as to what is the best way to place cities, but the moral here is: do not be squeamish about placing cities 3 tiles apart (city-tile-tile-city) or closer. I'll avoid the details of this here ("but my cities never grow beyond size 12!"), but just do it and you'll find yourself a lot more competitive.
3. Build Granaries
Many players disregard Granaries entirely, probably because their benefits require some attention to notice. The efficient use of Granaries is one of the most powerful early-game strategies, usually involving one or more Settler/Worker "pumps". Yes, you feel like you're not expanding fast enough, but this is misleading. It is fully possible to out-expand the AI on Emperor using Granaries (and sometimes even Diety, if the stars align...).
4. Know the effects of Corruption
Another "nitty-gritty" detail, but one that is well worth knowing. There are a lot of issues here, which just goes to show how pervasive (and therefore important) Corruption is in the game. Fortunately, there are some good threads here on 'Poly that discuss Corruption, in varying levels of detail. Sorry if I cannot offer more advice here, but I'm still working on this aspect of my own game!
5. Contact the other civs every round
Another behaviour that seems excessive: what possible good can come from seeing Hammurabi's face round after round? Plenty. There are "windows" of trading opportunity that are sometimes only open for one round at a time. For example, a civ may have discovered a tech and not traded it around to all other civs yet, allowing you to profit from it as well. Or, a civ may have a few Workers available for trade (probably due to war). Or, a civ may have just ended a large gpt deal with another civ, leaving it momentarily rich, and thus a great source for trading. Etc., etc. There is a lot of new information in the diplomacy screen from round to round, you just need to be willing to put in the time to get it.
6. Use the upgrade ability extensively
Knights->Cavalry for 20 gold is a no-brainer. But did you ever consider building Chariots to upgrade to Horsemen? Gold is easier to come by than Shields, meaning that the more units you can produce at a lower Shield cost, the better a standing army you'll have when you get the cash to upgrade everything. Sometimes, it is even a wise idea not to connect a resource (Iron, Horses, mostly) just so that you can keep building the "weaker" unit. The Persian/Roman tactic of building Veteran Warriors, then upgrading them to powerful UUs, applies to all other civs.
7. Place your Palace and Forbidden Palace wisely
The location of your Palace is not static: you can move it around using a "Palace jump", or rush it with a Leader in another city. The Forbidden Palace is static, however. Effective placement of these two improvements (especially the FP) can make the difference between a average empire and an excellent one. This obviously is related to the Corruption tip mentioned above.
8. Sell techs
This is counter-intuitive, but experience shows that it is a very powerful tool. By getting gpt for your techs (ideally from numerous civs), you keep the AI poor and therefore unable to conduct rapid research. It is not always necessary to get a "good deal". Once you become a tech broker, the deals will get better and better.
9. Master the Light and Dark Sides
By this I mean, play at least one game as a bloodthirsty warmonger, and one as a peaceful builder. Know how to play the extremes. The 'No Improvement Challenge' is great for the former, while the 'One City Challenge' is good for the latter. Only once you've tasted the extremes will you be efficient at warmongering/building in a "normal" game. Too many players build Universities during war. Similarly, too many players have huge standing armies when they need almost none.
10. Persist!
Yes, the AI gets advantages of the human player, and will often out-expand you, and jump way ahead in the tech tree. But there is plenty of time and opportunity to catch up. If you expect to always be "the best", or close to it, in any single game, you'll find yourself quitting more often than not at Emperor/Deity. But if you stick with it and play your best, you'll end up on top, and will have overcome a challenge. To me, at least, those are the best victories.
Edit: A lot of people might want to throw in their own tips, which is just fine. But I just have to include this eleventh one for the sake of completeness (I'm not quite sure how I forgot this one!):
11. Use the Luxury slider
Really critical. Many beginner-to-average players do not know what this little thing can do for you. Let's just say if the AI used this tool effectively, we'd all have to jump down a difficulty level.
Hope this helps some of you, and sorry to all the veterans who know all this already!
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 19-02-2003 at 01:18
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metalhead
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Nice points, Dominae. I will add that point 10 is probably the most important. It's easy to start an Emperor game, get behind, and then quit and go back to Monarch. The best way to learn how to succeed at higher levels is to play them, as it takes a lot of patience on your first couple tries. God knows I quit enough Emperor level games when Monarch was becoming a little too easy. Finally, I stuck with a game, and despite being 8-10 techs behind at one point, and the lessons I learned helped me greatly in all subsequent Emperor games.
A good point to remember - if you are truly stuck and don't know how to proceed, come to the 'poly, post a save, and ask for input, as you will get the best response to your questions. Not only will people give you tips on the best way to proceed, but will likely also provide very helpful critiques of your game up to that point.
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:26
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#1 Agreed.
#2 Depends upon the map. The corruption due to CN is much more important than corrupion due to distance for non-Comerical civs. For the Commerical civs, their cities need to reach pop 13 for optimum use of their traights.
The only times I go as tight as 3 tiles is when there is a shortage of land area.
#3: Depends upon how much expansion is left when you discover Pottery and also the adviabity of fresh water. There's not much of a point in a Granery in a city without fresh water when REX is already winding down.
#4: Yes
#5: Good idea as well
#6: For some reason everytime I'm ready to start building mobile units I'm already discovered Horse Back Riding. This has something to do with the AI seeming to make Horse Back Riding a high priority and me buying every tech from them as fast as possible.
#7: Most definately. I can usually outreserach the AI without the FP on Monarch level, but on the Emperor level, it's very rare to be able to do so until the FP is built.
#8: Other techs and Gold hard cash are much better than a GPT deal. With a GPT deal, you occansionly have to give into a demand for 20 - 30 gold so that they don't whelch on the remainder of the deal. Instead use standard bussiness cash management of receiving cash as soon as possible and delaying payment, when the AI demands the gold, you can give them the middle finger and honorallly get out of debt free when they declare war.
#9 , # 10 true.
Things not listed:
#11: Micro manage the tech slider. Be aware that the maximum reserach time provided you are spending at least 1 beaker a turn is 40 turns when the minimum reserach time for a human is 4 turns. Extra beakers are lost.
#12: Know the AIs tech research pattern. For instance, if you are Commerical and the neighboring AI isn't, you can almost certinately built the AI to Writing spending 1 beaker a turn for the first 40 turns.
#13: Be aware of the difference in cost between buying a tech & reseraching itself. While normally most techs are valued by the AI at less than research cost, there are some that are valued at higher than reserach cost, especally if you've even been at war with that AI.
#14: Don't sit on cash with the exception of the 1000 gold reserve when you build Wall Street. The AI can not take away cash you don't have. Instead use the cash to rush structures after leaving Despotism, upgrade units, and run a deficit reseraching techs.
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:26
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Definately, you can come back from being far behind in techs with a catalyst or two.
Peacefull ones:
Completion of the FP.
Also a Golden Age that's spent building an interferstructre helps.
Military catalyst:
Take over a few cities of your higher tech neighbor, then give peace for 20 turns in exchange for all their techs, then finish the job.
quote:
Originally posted by metalhead
Nice points, Dominae. I will add that point 10 is probably the most important. It's easy to start an Emperor game, get behind, and then quit and go back to Monarch. The best way to learn how to succeed at higher levels is to play them, as it takes a lot of patience on your first couple tries. God knows I quit enough Emperor level games when Monarch was becoming a little too easy. Finally, I stuck with a game, and despite being 8-10 techs behind at one point, and the lessons I learned helped me greatly in all subsequent Emperor games.
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BRC
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Great job Dom! That pretty much sums it up. I was going to make a thread on what I've learned on my way to Emperor in a week or two, but this pretty much takes care of it.
You still need a basic understanding of the game to use these tips. Managing your workers will be amazingly helpful, if you prioritize the jobs correctly. Packing cities closer helps, but it can be a lot more powerful if you know what to look for in a city site. Graneries, in the right situation, can make the game easy.
I think that your selling techs tip may be the most important. I know that it seems ridiculous to sell the tech that you just researched for 1/2 of what it's worth, but you have to. You will break the AI's banks. Another key is to also make sure that you "give" it away to the really poor civs too. This way, they will not boost the stronger AI's cash flow. Hopefully, the weak AI's don't pose a threat anyway.
Dom's last point is important too. If you're behind, don't worry. There will be an opportunity. Just make sure that you, and you're military (  ) is ready.
[endorsement]I've already been through all this with Dom. We have a whole thread on the help he has given me. He knows what it takes. Listen to the man. [/endorsement] 
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
#2 Depends upon the map. The corruption due to CN is much more important than corrupion due to distance for non-Comerical civs. For the Commerical civs, their cities need to reach pop 13 for optimum use of their traights.
The only times I go as tight as 3 tiles is when there is a shortage of land area.
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The fact that you have this knowledge means that you can check this tip off your list, so to speak. My point is that knowledge of Corruption is very useful for higher-level play.
quote:
#3: Depends upon how much expansion is left when you discover Pottery and also the adviabity of fresh water. There's not much of a point in a Granery in a city without fresh water when REX is already winding down.
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Clearly there are circumstances when a Granary should not be built in a particular city. My point is that the usage of Granaries is critical enough when they are needed that it should not be forgotten. My advice covers the case when all is needed is a Granary in one or two Settler/Worker pumps.
quote:
#6: For some reason everytime I'm ready to start building mobile units I'm already discovered Horse Back Riding. This has something to do with the AI seeming to make Horse Back Riding a high priority and me buying every tech from them as fast as possible.
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Refuse HBR, and do not research it yourself until you are ready.
quote:
#8: Other techs and Gold hard cash are much better than a GPT deal. With a GPT deal, you occansionly have to give into a demand for 20 - 30 gold so that they don't whelch on the remainder of the deal.
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This last point has never happened to me. Trading for gpt reduces the AI's effectiveness in research; getting the gold from their treasury does not. This is because the AI does not use deficit spending to conduct research. Oftentimes other civs will not have large sums available, but they do have gpt available every few turns (when their deals end or they discover techs).
Thanks for the comments, though. Always appreciated.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by BRC
Great job Dom! That pretty much sums it up. I was going to make a thread on what I've learned on my way to Emperor in a week or two, but this pretty much takes care of it.
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Oops, sorry BRC! I still think your thread could be valuable, in a "this is what how I've changed, why I'm a better player now" kind of way (yeah, way to express yourself, Dom).
quote:
You still need a basic understanding of the game to use these tips.
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True. I'm not catering to the very beginners here (there are oodles of threads for that), just the people that way to make that leap into better play.
quote:
[endorsement]I've already been through all this with Dom. We have a whole thread on the help he has given me. He knows what it takes. Listen to the man. [/endorsement] |
Ha! Thanks BRC. You are, of course, aware that many of my comments come directly from our little "chats".
Dominae
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yxhuvud
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Very nice thread!
Regarding #3: It all depends on the available space you have to rex in. Telling newbies to build granaries as generally as you do is wrong imo, since ime the times where you shouldn't build granaries far outnumber when it's good to build them. Regarding rexing as fast as the opponents at emperor, I do that given that I've got decent land, and if I get a cow I always outrex them. I think this is because well managed workers and tight city spacing (a settler that builds closer spends less time traveling) gives me enough extra effectivity to push me ahead of the AI, despite their advantages.
This is not saying granaries are always bad, but rather that they are often unessecary or that it doesn't matter if you build them or not. The only things you *really* need to beat emperor is well managed workers, good city placement and decent military experience. When you learn to attack at the right time with a sufficent number of troops, and to do big warrior->swordsmen upgrades (which is *much* easier to do than chariot->horsemen). what I mean by military experience also includes oscillating war. Learning to do those as opposed to annihilation wars is also extremely important, since they tend to make so that you will keep up in tech in a way you might not do otherwise. I cannot stress enough the usefulness of this. Learn to do these things well enough and that will be more than enough to beat emperor, with enough practice, even if it hard the first few times.
Regarding #8: I would rephrace it is follows: Know when to sell techs. There is no use giving techs away for nothing, and you definitely shouldn't sell techs that give you a real advantage, like good military units (I will so no sell Replaceable Parts if I am the first to it), or wonder enablers. But if you get a good deal, and not lose anything by selling it go ahead.
regarding joncumms #14: That point is flat out wrong. While it is a good idea not to have too much money, saving ahead to upgrade all units at once, or to buy a tech etc. Especially the saving to upgrade a LOT of units is powerful.
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:26
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Good tips, Dominae, although I don't have the patience to contact every civ every round (at least not on anything short of Deity, which I essentially never play). I usually figure out when a deal I'd be interested in is likely to be available and contact AIs then. (And sometimes I do contact at least my main rivals for several turns straight watching for the right timing for a deal - for example, trying to time the sale of Steam Power right before my archrival discovers it and can sell it themselves. If a civ has surplus gold, you can sometimes watch its research progress by watching the amount it is willing to offer you for a tech decline.)
Regarding selling techs, I do have a counterpoint: technologically backward civs can make great targets, but only if you keep them backward. If they can give you a halfway respectable price, sell to them before they buy from one of your competitors. But if they can't, let them slip behind so when you're ready to invade them, you'll have a technological edge. Even if three of your competitors are even with you in tech, there may be a couple others lagging far enough behind that you can get a clear technological advantage. And invading with cavalry before an opponent has riflemen (for example) can be a good way to get extra territory relatively cheaply.
Speaking of which, always watch the scientific civs near the end of the medieval era. With almost no exceptions, they get Nationalism the moment they finish their last medieval techs, and that can throw a monkey wrench into cavalry-based invasion plans.
Nathan
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Dominae
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badams:  .
Nathan, you know the game well enough to know when contacting the AIs repeatedly is necessary or not (your example proves my point). I was just trying to make the point that it is possible to "miss out" on important deals if do not have this knowledge. The easiest way to avoid this (the alternative being loads of experience) is use the diplomacy screen very often ("every turn" just sounds better!). I learned this lesson well in OCC, which is essentially all about diplomacy.
Also, I can make the same point about selling techs: clearly I was being extreme to try and get my point across. The idea is simply that selling techs is not a "bad thing". Players used to the "easy life" on Regent/Monarch love their tech lead so much that selling techs sounds just wrong. I think such players could definitely benefit from losing this bias.
yxhuvud (did I ever mention your name is tough to spell correctly from memory?!), I agree that telling players to always build Granaries is misleading (I defended this point in another thread). But, IMO, top players make very good use of Granaries, and it just so happens that Granaries are useful more often than not. I would not say they're essential, but they're a very powerful tool. A newer player would do well to learn to use them.
Your point about selling techs is exactly the kind of reasoning I'm warning against! If you only sell techs that give the AI "no advantage" and that will net you "good deals", you're crippling your economy. If I can get 100+ gpt from 3-4 different civs for Replaceable Parts, you bet I'm going trade it to them. Tech brokering is really very powerful.
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Nathan, you know the game well enough to know when contacting the AIs repeatedly is necessary or not (your example proves my point). I was just trying to make the point that it is possible to "miss out" on important deals if do not have this knowledge. The easiest way to avoid this (the alternative being loads of experience) is use the diplomacy screen very often ("every turn" just sounds better!). I learned this lesson well in OCC, which is essentially all about diplomacy. |
I agree 100% that checking every turn is the ideal, especially for people who don't have a lot of experience figuring out when good deals are likely to be available. I'm just highly skeptical of how many people will have the patience to do put that ideal into practice. Ultimately, both points are important - the ideal, and how to get the most out of contacts if you find the ideal to be more trouble than it's worth.
quote:
Also, I can make the same point about selling techs: clearly I was being extreme to try and get my point across. The idea is simply that selling techs is not a "bad thing". Players used to the "easy life" on Regent/Monarch love their tech lead so much that selling techs sounds just wrong. I think such players could definitely benefit from losing this bias.
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The danger is that people might go from one extreme to the other when the ideal is somewhere in the middle. If you don't sell techs at all, you lose out on an opportunity to leverage AI gold to research faster, maybe rush-build some extra infrastructure if there's gold left over, and ultimately build up a bigger tech lead than you could get without trading. But at the other extreme, if you sell techs dirt cheap to anyone who can pay the moment you get them, you can't build up a lead. The trick is to find the middle ground where you're siphoning off most of the AIs' available gpt most of the time without giving the AIs better deals than is necessary in the process.
Nathan
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaybe
It is my understanding that the point is to sell them to all the AI civs in the correct order. Labor intensive -- pretend that your staff is doing it, not yourself.
- On the turn you get the tech (or decide to trade it), visit everyone to find who has the most funds, and see who is willing to offer the most. DO NOT DO ANY ACTUAL TRADES.
- After research is done, do the actual trading, from most profitable to least.
(The point being that as more civs have the tech, the less value it has to others because its research time is reduced.) |
Right, but make sure you figure any tech and luxuries you can get from the deal into your calculations too. And keep in mind that the value of techs you trade for also diminishes depending on how many civs know them.
By the way, another of my big tech trading tricks is to get my luxuries as part of my deals on tech sales. When doing that, it's useful to have as many of the deals as possible expire at the same time, since each such deal locks the timing of some of my tech sales into a 20-turn cycle.
Nathan
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yxhuvud
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dominae regarding tech brokering: well, I admit it might be a bit farfetched to say that I would never sell replaceable parts, I wouldn't even think on it if I were to wage a war within a reasonable timeframe. On the other hand, this might be kinda influenced that the last games I've played have been largely building a few infantry and a gazillion of artillery 
Regarding granaries, check your target audience, are they mainly warmongers or builders? In my experience, monarch players are mostly builders. Arrian not inlcuded.
Joncunn: if you save your incomes a few turns eventually you will be able to buy a tech for the money. It is of course a balance act to choose when to save and when to build improvements. It all comes down to which techs and whcih improvements.
Arrian, you should really take the step up to emperor permanantly. You will not improve unless you take on a challenge, which you don't at that level. At least for me, half the charm in playing the game is the mental challenge and the improvement of my play. Without any such challenge I might as well be playing Hearts.. Not saying that can't be satisfying anyhow, if in a different way.
Hmm. Dave, do you have any suggestions on how to survive the initial onslaught at deity? I feel I have a nice chance of winning as long as noone attacks me first, while if they do I am totally b0rked.
Regarding the spelling of my nick, I happen to live in a country where it is pronouncible and actually almost means something
#20: Place your cities so that not only you get production from as much land tiles as possible, but as many coast and sea tiles as well. This allows for tighter city placement close to coasts to maximize the amount of tiles you get production from. A wealthy civ have it much easier than a poor one.
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badams52
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near the magic kingdom
May 2002
time: 21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
By the way, another of my big tech trading tricks is to get my luxuries as part of my deals on tech sales. When doing that, it's useful to have as many of the deals as possible expire at the same time, since each such deal locks the timing of some of my tech sales into a 20-turn cycle. |
Another thing to keep in mind when trading for luxuries is that luxuries #s 1 and 2 are least expensive, 3 and 4 are next, 5 and 6 next, and the most expensive are numbers 7 and 8. Supply and demand make some difference, but by far the biggest factor is how many happy faces the luxury will give you. So if you're trading for 5 luxuries from other civs, then try and get all 5 trades to end on the same turn. That way, you'll at least get a discout for the first few. If your 5 luxury deals end sporatically where you're always bargaining for just one, then you're paying the same rate for all 5 of them.
edit: typos
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by badams52
Another thing to keep in mind when trading for luxuries is that luxuries #s 1 and 2 are least expensive, 3 and 4 are next, 5 and 6 next, and the most expensive are numbers 7 and 8. Supply and demand make some difference, but by far the biggest factor is how many happy faces the luxury will give you. So if you're trading for 5 luxuries from other civs, then try and get all 5 trades to end on the same turn. That way, you'll at least get a discout for the first few. If your 5 luxury deals end sporatically where you're always bargaining for just one, then you're paying the same rate for all 5 of them. |
Also keep in mind that if deals involve something per turn on both sides and a resource is involved, they don't terminate automatically just because something up front was part of the deal. The best procedure is to end the deals that didn't terminate automatically before negotiating new deals on a "highest value first" basis, since that means you won't have the luxuries from those deals when you start negotiating.
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18-02-2003 20:50
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