18-02-2003 23:14									#31
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Agreed. Seems pretty clear that he's got it, so the question becomes, how dangerous is it?

Thanks again, Germany....

-=Vel=-

	18-02-2003 23:15									#32
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This is no big news, similar stories of half-truths are espoused by the US government everyday.

Last edited by monkspider on 18-02-2003 at 23:27

	18-02-2003 23:19									#33
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Duncan,

That's easy. Unlike the bulk of you Euros, we Americans aren't suprized by a smoking gun. It's more than obvious that he is producing and keeping WoD. All this BS about a smoking gun is to convince you blind Euros.

"All you blind Euros"? My country is getting ready for sending troops to the Middle East and my PM refuses to apologize to the demonstrators in Copenhagen after he accused them of serving or at least supporting Saddam Hussein. Get your facts straight. There are plenty of other European governments offering considerable support.

	18-02-2003 23:20									#34
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Ummm...I would have to disagree with you, Monkspider.

Three things MAKE this big news:

1) Currently, much of world attention is focused on the ME, and in Europe there are calls for stronger "proof" that Saddam posesses weapons of mass destruction

2) Germany has seriously bulked up its supply of vaccinations against this particular disease (6m ---> 100m...that's a pretty significant jump, and not one that would have been necessary if there wasn't a percieved threat).

3) Europe (specifically Germany and France leading the charge) have been CLAMORING for this proof, while attempting a bit of a powerplay diplomatically, against the US.

This appears out of nowhere.....oh what? Germany just "forgot" to tell the rest of the planet they might wanna bulk up on Smallpox vaccinations? And how convenient it was to forget that particular detail, given that it provides the "proof" they're so eagerly demanding, which of course, serves as the backdrop for their powerplay....

Add 'em up, and what do you get?

-=Vel=-

	18-02-2003 23:21									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Monk And so I have to say I think it's disappointing that a good moderator who is actually very capable of making a point surrenders to the urge to "lob something back in the other direction" which sounds likes we're in a fight or something.

It's a two way street.. And frankly, there is far more American Bashing than Euro bashing here. Just look at the OT and the proof is there. American bashing came LONG before Euro bashing. I think a lot of americans just got sick of it and wanted to give them a taste of their own trash.

And I have no problem with posting a REAL NEWS STORY. If it happens to make the Euros uncomfortable...
It doesn't bother me one bit.

	18-02-2003 23:22									#36
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Amen and well-said, Monk! And thank you and your countrymen!!!

-=Vel=-

	18-02-2003 23:24									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Monk my PM refuses to apologize to the demonstrators in Copenhagen after he accused them of serving or at least supporting Saddam Hussein.

God bless Rasmussen, even Bush didn't have the balls to do that.

	18-02-2003 23:30									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Duncan, That's easy. Unlike the bulk of you Euros, we Americans aren't suprized by a smoking gun. It's more than obvious that he is producing and keeping WoD. All this BS about a smoking gun is to convince you blind Euros. "All you blind Euros"? My country is getting ready for sending troops to the Middle East and my PM refuses to apologize to the demonstrators in Copenhagen after he accused them of serving or at least supporting Saddam Hussein. Get your facts straight. There are plenty of other European governments offering considerable support.

?

I guess those aren't the blind Euros then. Those are the Euros who can see something right in front of their face.

	18-02-2003 23:31									#39
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And for the record, Rasmussen is right.

What Saddam WANTS is to stall long enough so that public opinion turns against war (people don't like the tension and uncertainty....keep it high too long, and they'll start to balk), such that any attempt to USE force would be political suicide here in our western democracies.

How do you do that?

You play shell games.

Refuse to cooperate till the last possible minute, and then make a few concessions.

If they buy it, then it *looks* like you're trying, and they'll give you more time.

Rinse and repeat.

Public anti-war sentiment grows, and Saddam wins.

Good job, peaceniks! You just provided some added job security for a ruthless dictator!

-=Vel=-

	18-02-2003 23:33									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Good job, peaceniks! You just provided some added job security for a ruthless dictator!

I don't think we made Bush's job any more secure.

	18-02-2003 23:36									#41
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Bush is a one-term wonder who will be out of the world's hair in 2004. We'll give HIM a regieme change....

-=Vel=-

	18-02-2003 23:38									#42
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It is interestingthat even in 1943 ,when Hitler's mania was totally clear for everyone to see, there was still a significant anti-war movement in the U.S. (this is a full year after Germany declared war on the U.S.!). There has always been and will always be people who don't want to do things which are clearly necissary.

	18-02-2003 23:41									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Bush is a one-term wonder who will be out of the world's hair in 2004. We'll give HIM a regieme change.... -=Vel=-

If the economy doesn't crash I wuoldn't count on it.

	18-02-2003 23:46									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Good job, peaceniks! You just provided some added job security for a ruthless dictator! -=Vel=-

Yes of course I marched in the anti-war rally because I wanted to support Saddam. Sheesh give me a break, I marched because I don't want to see war for the sake of war.

The more REAL evidence that builds up, the more I'll support the war. A second resolution would significantly help boost support by a large margin.

And yes if it's true the German government has a lot to answer for.

	18-02-2003 23:46									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK If the economy doesn't crash...

IF... What do you call the economy now...

	18-02-2003 23:49									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ming IF... What do you call the economy now...

Looks like crash coming up, but economists are only giving a crash a 25% possibility this year.

	18-02-2003 23:50									#47
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I don't like Bush but he's on course to get reelected. Why, because all of the Democratic parties leaders are moving hard left while the rest of the country is center or center right. That is a recipe for disaster and now the Dems are going to go through a long winter just like the Labor party did during the 1980s and early 1990s in Britain.

The Dems party leadership has been the same since the 1970s and they are still old fashioned leftists. The party only became successful in the 1990's because Clinton forced them to give up the old Socialist ideas and move towards the center. With Clinton gone the old leaders have reverted back to their old ways and it's going to take a few loses before the party rank and file can ditch them and their failed ideas.

	19-02-2003 00:06									#48
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Things are much clearer now.
No wonder no support of straightening out Hussein.

And Oerdin, Bush is what the majority want.

	19-02-2003 00:11									#49
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Amen and well-said, Monk! And thank you and your countrymen!!!

You're welcome, but it's worth pointing out I am myself very sceptical, as are the majority of my countrymen, even if we don't protest very much. Your friendly thoughts should rather go to the (current) Rasmussen government as well as the majority in the Parlament. After all, they're the ones deploying the damn submarine.

	19-02-2003 01:11									#50
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quote: I do get a little tired of the constant America bashing... Not that we don't deserve it, but the holier than thou attitude is what bugs me. EVERY GOVERNMENT has it's own agenda... and they aren't all pure and goodness like some people would like others to believe.

Yup... despite my being against the war at this point, a lot of anti-war Euro's on these forums suffer from, "My sh1t don't stink" syndrome.

	19-02-2003 01:18									#51
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Oerdin, I get the feeling that you think this war is solely about getting Saddam because he's an evil dictator. Even though I think comparisons to Hitler are hyperbole, the US is not even consistent in it's righteousness against regimes that violate human rights'. China is perhaps the biggest human rights' violator on this planet, yet the Bush admin is strangely silent. And what about Khadafi? He's still in power in Libya and he's just as evil as Saddam.

If you want to go around the world liberating peoples, that's fine. I can accept that. But it's a flat out lie to say that's why Bush has a hard on for Saddam. And with the economic and social problems in America, I think its wrong and terribly irresponsible to be spending 100 billion+ on a war with Iraq. The ends don't justify the means.

	19-02-2003 02:04									#52
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Can Germany help me hide my chemical weapons too? I'm on my eigth UN resolution and I'm afraid that once I hit 10 they may make me promise to look into getting rid of them.

	19-02-2003 02:09									#53
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I don't know if you're a DL, but you're funny!

	19-02-2003 02:17									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Dems party leadership has been the same since the 1970s and they are still old fashioned leftists. The party only became successful in the 1990's because Clinton forced them to give up the old Socialist ideas and move towards the center. With Clinton gone the old leaders have reverted back to their old ways and it's going to take a few loses before the party rank and file can ditch them and their failed ideas.

	19-02-2003 02:18									#55
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Also I was wondering if France would like to sell me another nuclear reactor...you see my other one kinda got buried in a sandstorm caused by some kind of bombing or something or other. I'd like to pay you in oil but I've rigged all my pumps with C4 and we can't really operate them without them exploding. I'll be sure to triple my output of that exclusive gay men bondage porn that Chirac likes as payment instead.

	19-02-2003 02:24									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Yeah I liked that one too

	19-02-2003 02:39									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Ummm...I would have to disagree with you, Monkspider. Three things MAKE this big news: 1) Currently, much of world attention is focused on the ME, and in Europe there are calls for stronger "proof" that Saddam posesses weapons of mass destruction 2) Germany has seriously bulked up its supply of vaccinations against this particular disease (6m ---> 100m...that's a pretty significant jump, and not one that would have been necessary if there wasn't a percieved threat). 3) Europe (specifically Germany and France leading the charge) have been CLAMORING for this proof, while attempting a bit of a powerplay diplomatically, against the US. This appears out of nowhere.....oh what? Germany just "forgot" to tell the rest of the planet they might wanna bulk up on Smallpox vaccinations? And how convenient it was to forget that particular detail, given that it provides the "proof" they're so eagerly demanding, which of course, serves as the backdrop for their powerplay.... Add 'em up, and what do you get? -=Vel=-

I agree, Vel. Germany is more than irresponsible here. Their irresponsibility rises to the CRIMINAL level.

	19-02-2003 02:43									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Bush is a one-term wonder who will be out of the world's hair in 2004. We'll give HIM a regieme change.... -=Vel=-

Vel, I think this is wishful thinking especially if you do not know of he state of the economy next year, who the Democrat candidate is - or how there war on terror is coming or how this Iraq adventure turns out. I personally thought that Gray Davis, governor of California, had no chance of being re-elected. But this is before the Republicans again nominated a complete disaster as its candidate. Davis was re-elected with a 61% disapproval rating.

	19-02-2003 02:59									#59
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So the Germans know the Iraqis have WMD. That confirms what realistic people already knew, that the German government used the crisis to maintain political power by US bashing, instead of going after Iraq with us to get rid of the WMD before they sell it to terrorists.

Instead they insisted that inspectors find the WMD as a stall tactic, and used the time to come up with a self serving alliance with the French of all people.

Makes me sick, angry. Few things get to me like betrayal.

	19-02-2003 03:16									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer instead of going after Iraq with us to get rid of the WMD before they sell it to terrorists.

Worried they'll cut in on the US's market?