19-02-2003 22:10									#121
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SO?!

Dude, Germany and France are the ones lamenting that we "don't really know" if they exist or not, and without proof, we should not act. Then we find out that they DO know, and in fact, regard it as enough of a threat to bulk up on vaccine.

Not exactly rocket science to see the writing on the wall.

-=Vel=-

	19-02-2003 22:11									#122
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quote: "Germany knew all along that such weapons existed" - Yes, I think so. So?

I think Vel's point is that Germany should be more honest about its oposition toward the war and cease calling for a smoking gun if this is the case.

	19-02-2003 22:13									#123
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"They we find out that they DO know, and in fact, regard it as enough of a threat to bulk up on vaccine."

I think they have known this for long. As for specific smallpox scare, there can be many explanations. No need for sudden definite proof there.

"I think Vel's point is that Germany should be more honest about its oposition toward the war and cease calling for a smoking gun if this is the case."

Uh, we're talking politics here...

	19-02-2003 22:18									#124
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Uh, we're talking politics here...

Of course. However, I think that there are better arguements to be made against the Iraq war in this case rather than calling for a "smoking gun."

	19-02-2003 22:19									#125
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All this about a smoking gun was just rhetoric anyway. Everyone knows he's got WoD. This is not really a big deal. The only thing this means is that Germany looks slightly stupider than France does.

	19-02-2003 22:20									#126
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Uh, we're talking politics here...

That's kind of the whole point of this thread.

When Bush does ANYTHING, the Euro's bash him by calling him stupid or saying it's politics.

When a Euro plays politics, there is nothing wrong with it...

	19-02-2003 22:20									#127
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Sure. And there are better arguments to be made for an Iraq war than eg claiming Al Qaeda links you cannot prove.

But it's politics. I don't understand why you would identify the view of individual europeans with the arguments presented and motives held by their governments.

	19-02-2003 22:23									#128
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Ming, you're suffering from a perception problem.

"When Bush does ANYTHING, the Euro's bash him by calling him stupid or saying it's politics."

Of course.

"When a Euro plays politics, there is nothing wrong with it..."

No, it's the same thing. You'll just hardly find a European that defends his politicians, so it's not an issue. When I called Chirac a pompous dickhead 2 or 3 times in another thread, how many were defending him? Easy counting, Ming...

	19-02-2003 22:24									#129
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HO - I disagree. I specifically disagree because while you are right that the *source* of the scare could come from anyplace, there were only three mentioned. Big surprise, but one of those three was Iraq.

Funny how, given German/French opposition to an attack on Iraq, that little detail was quietly forgotten. I know, I know, our enlightened superiors in Europe obviously have some deeply humanitarian reason for "forgetting" to mention it, and for "forgetting" to let the rest of the world in on the secret, so they too, could start bulking up on vaccine. Obviously, we dim-wits on this side of the pond lack the ability to grasp the subtle magnificence of the plan, which is, of course, why we were left in the dark.

Nah.

More likely, the simplest explanation is correct....that being, fessing up to the knowledge that Iraq has this stuff runs counter to the big rallying cry of the Paris Pact (more time, more inspectors, we need PROOF of womd's), and because of that, it was hushed up.

Can't very well make a stand against the US, diplomatically if you reveal the smoking gun you're asking for.

-=Vel=-

	19-02-2003 22:28									#130
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"Obviously, we dim-wits on this side of the pond lack the ability to grasp the subtle magnificence of the plan, which is, of course, why we were left in the dark."

Can't help it, but: Pooooooor Yanks.

Your government has claimed all kinds of proof that Iraq not only posesses that stuff, but also they hand it out to Osama. You really need that last bit of info for... what?

"this stuff runs counter to the big rallying cry of the Paris Pact (more time, more inspectors, we need PROOF of womd's)"

If it were proof, that would be a prefect reason to cover it up. But then explain why
- it was leaked in a budget document
- it was not used by Powell before the UN

	19-02-2003 22:30									#131
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Many Europeans here defend their politians when it suits them. Many of them are defending Chirac for telling Eastern European leaders to shut up about the war.

	19-02-2003 22:31									#132
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And none of them disagrees that he's a pompous dickhead.

	19-02-2003 22:34									#133
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Your government has claimed all kinds of proof that Iraq not only posesses that stuff, but also they hand it out to Osama. You really need that last bit of info for... what?

Nope, we never said there was proof, only that it was obvious. This proof thing is all rhetoric created by your side of the pond. Of course we are talking about proof, because you guys keep bringing it up. So we can't talk to you about it, unless we talk about proof.

	19-02-2003 22:37									#134
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler No, it's the same thing.

You seem to misunderstand. We DO agree on this.

Bush is no different or worse than his Euro counterparts.
They are all scum bags

But that would be hard to tell around here since Bush bashing is a main theme here I just think people should look at their own governments before being so smug on their attacks against the American Government.
Some people's Holier than thou attitude is just unwarrented

I know my government is full of it... just like everybody elses

	19-02-2003 22:40									#135
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler And none of them disagrees that he's a pompous dickhead.

I don't know about that, but they defend him.

	19-02-2003 22:43									#136
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HO, Vel is right. What the French and German have been saying is give the inspectors more time to find out if Saddam really has WoMD. At the same time, they seem to believe he has at least small pox "weaponized" to the extent that could devastate an unprepared country. Can't you see the inconsistency in this?

As to their opposition to war, it can take three forms:

1) No to war under any circumstances;

2) No to war unless France or Germany are threatened;

3) No to war unless the US is threatened, in which case we will help.

I see the German position as 1. The French also seem to be tending to 1 or 2 as well because the US has said that it believes Saddam is a threat to the US. It is not France's position to disagree with the US on this point. But still it is against war even though their friend and ally is threatened.

Last edited by Ned on 20-02-2003 at 00:44

	19-02-2003 22:44									#137
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"You seem to misunderstand. We DO agree on this."

I know. You seem to misunderstand on what we disagree.

"people should look at their own governments before being so smug on their attacks against the American Government."

They should. And they do. But why should it stop them from calling the US government as what it is?

Many Americans seem to be insulted when their government is critisized in a way that is perfectly normal for dealing with our governments.

	19-02-2003 22:48									#138
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Many Americans seem to be insulted when their government is critisized in a way that is perfectly normal for dealing with our governments.

Critizied is one thing... I even do that. That doesn't insult me. What pisses me off is their holier than thou attitude that implies that their governments are superior and aren't like ours. That and the whole "Bush is a moron thing". Just because they disagree with his actions/policy, doesn't make him a moron.

All governments are POLITICAL... that's the nature of the beast.

	19-02-2003 22:52									#139
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Here's a newspaper article detailing that Germany was Iraq's NUMBER ONE WEAPONS SUPPLIER for 10 years after the Gulf War ended in 1991, involving 80 German companies. Many of these weapons supplies were ILLEGAL under UN sanctions.

For full report from dw-world.de:


Iraqi Report Could Prove Damaging to Germany

Volatile information - the weighty Iraqi report on its weapons program


Iraq’s declaration of its weapons programs contains explosive news for Germany, a Berlin paper has reported. The dossier is said to detail covert arms deals between German defense firms and Iraq.

Just as the heated debates within the German government over the role of German troops and equipment in a possible war against Iraq seem to be cooling down, another potential bombshell threatens to reignite the fires.

On Tuesday, the Berlin-based left-wing paper, Tageszeitung reported that aspects of the 12,000-page Iraqi report on Iraq's weapons programs, submitted to the U.N last week, could prove highly embarrassing for Germany.

The newspaper - believed to be the first to have access to the top-secret dossier - has written that the Iraqi declaration contains the names of 80 German firms, research laboratories and people, who are said to have helped Iraq develop its weapons program.

Germany, Iraq’s number one arms supplier?

The most contentious piece of news for Germany is that the report names it as the NUMBER ONE supplier of weapons supplies to Iraq. German firms are supposed to easily outnumber the firms from other countries who have been exporting to Iraq.

They have delivered technical know-how, components, basic substances and even entire technical facilities for the development of atomic, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction to Iraq right since 1975.

In some cases, conventional military and technical dealings between Germany and Iraq are said to date till 2001, ten years after the second Gulf war and a time when international sanctions against Saddam Hussein are still in place.

The paper reports that the dossier contains several indications of cases, where German authorities right up to the Finance Ministry tolerated the illegal arms cooperation and also promoted to it to an extent.

Wait and watch says German Finance Ministry

The German Finance Ministry has said that it will react to the report only once it has studied the Iraqi declaration.

"We’ll first wait till the report is in our hands," a spokesman from the ministry said on Tuesday.

The spokesman however said that the German government of the time in 1990 had informed the parliament about such German supplies to Iraq.

Ever since Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, there has been a strict embargo against the country. The spokesman said that there have been a few cases of violation of the embargo and the government has initiated investigations.

German military exports to Iraq nothing new

Explosive as the newspaper report may appear, it’s not the first of its kind.

For months rumors have been circulating in the German media of murky deals between German arms companies and businessmen with Iraq despite the rigid embargoes in place.

In October this year, a magazine of the German radio channel, Südwestrundfunk reported that electronics giant Siemens had delivered specialized technical equipment to Iraq for the treatment of kidney stones, but which could also under certain circumstances be used as a detonator for atom bombs.

Siemens insisted that the device could not be misused because it had commissioned an Iraqi company to regularly monitor the equipment. In fact the delivery was even sanctioned by the sanctions council of the U.N. and the Federal Office of Economics and Export Control (BAFA).

The latest newspaper report also touches upon the gray zone between medicine and armaments and writes of so-called dual-use goods that can be used for developing weapons as well as for civilian purposes.

The German government was apparently informed in 1999 of the delivery of such dual-use goods to Iraq, but is said to have turned a blind eye.

German defense firms conduct roaring trade with Baghdad

German arms companies in the meantime have been conducting booming business with Iraq in recent years. According to the German Federal Statistics Office, German military exports to Iraq have been steadily rising from year to year.

From annual exports amounting to 21,7 million euro in 1997, the volume of exports for the following year shot to some 76,4 million euro. The trend continued in 2001 with exports to Iraq bringing German firms profits in the range of 336,5 million euro.

German goods worth 226,2 million euro have already been shipped to Iraq in the first half of this year. Some of the official heavyweights in the export scene are the German electronics firm Siemens with medical equipment and energy distribution systems and carmaker DaimlerChrysler. Both are reported to rake in revenues worth double digit figures in the millions.

Chancellor Schröder in precarious situation

Though the German government has not officially reacted to the Iraqi declaration detailing its role in supplying Iraq with arms, there is little doubt that the issue is bound to stoke passions.

Ever since Chancellor Gerhard Schröder refused to be part of any military action in Iraq before the German general elections in September, Berlin’s relation to Washington has been a strained one.


With Schröder sticking to his pacifist line, but dithering over the level of cooperation with the U.S. in the case of a war against Iraq, the latest report is guaranteed to provide ammunition to the opposition who have strongly criticized Schröder’s policy towards America.

Another real fear is that Schröder’s image as a staunch pacifist might now be sullied if it emerges that Germany has all along been helping the very leader who it has been unwilling to topple, to stockpile his weapons.

The report could also provide the U.S. with an excuse to step up the pressure on Germany to give in to American military demands for deployment of German troops and use of German military equipment in the case of a military attack on Iraq.


[If the above isn't bad enough, Germany will head the UN SANCTIONS COMMITTEE ON IRAQ]:

Are Germany's New UN Obligations a Migraine Mandate?

Germany will join the United Nations Security Council team as a non-permanent member next year and head the Sanctions Committee on Iraq, a position that could place it at odds with its own stated foreign policy. (December 16, 2002)


http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,33...376_1_A,00.html

	19-02-2003 22:57									#140
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"implies that their governments are superior and aren't like ours."

Well I think yours is actually worse on some things, but they're pretty much the same animal. You talk about attitudes and implications. Maybe you are just interpreting that into statements?

"That and the whole "Bush is a moron thing"."

To be honest, I consider him to be of average intelligence and a moron. Chirac and Berlusconi are morons too. That's still flattering compared to our own Haider, who is a total psycho.

	19-02-2003 23:01									#141
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler To be honest, I consider him to be of average intelligence and a moron. Chirac and Berlusconi are morons too. That's still flattering compared to our own Haider, who is a total psycho.

See... I have no problem with your attitude. You at least admit that others are as bad or worse, and don't speak with a holier than thou attitude. It's the people that think their leaders are far superior and act with more moral fiber that piss me off when they attack Bush.
Their scum bag leaders are as worse or no better than ours

	19-02-2003 23:13									#142
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HO,

Just because people defend their leaders doesn't mean that they think their leaders are perfect. You agreed to this basically with the Chirac thing. You know Chirac isn't perfect, but if you agree with one of his actions you defend him. It's the same with Americans.

	20-02-2003 00:03									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I do get a little tired of the constant America bashing... Not that we don't deserve it

America deserves constant bashing?

	20-02-2003 00:19									#144
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hi ,

you know whats intresting when it comes to anthrax , the vaccin and europe , ....

well last week the dutch showed the world the made 20 million vaccins in secret in the last 5 months , together with the luxembourg they are the only one that have protection against anthrax , .... the germans have not innoculated the troops nor do they have supplies in case of an outbreak , ....

one thing is intresting in the war with iraq , ... the largest oil producer is Total - Fina - Elf - Aqiteine - Exxon , .... a french firm , ..... and who is paying those plants when something goes wrong , .... Allianz a german insurance firm , .....

no wonder those two countries are standing behind belgium in the iraq war , .....

so its probably save to say that our so called "allies" are not keen on a war , .....

they could loose some bucks , .....

have a nice day

	20-02-2003 00:45									#145
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quote: Originally posted by panag no wonder those two countries are standing behind belgium in the iraq war , ..... so its probably save to say that our so called "allies" are not keen on a war , ..... they could loose some bucks , ..... have a nice day

Have a nice day...

	20-02-2003 01:08									#146
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Leonidas, if I understand the article correctly, Germany has been selling Iraq illegal weapons and weapons materials that can be used to produce proscribed missiles and weapons of mass distruction during the period 1991-2003. Perhaps this is the source of German knowledge that Saddam has weaponized smallpox. Perhaps Germans even helped Saddam in his weaponization efforts.

I don't know how many times I've read on this forum that America has no business criticizing Saddam's weapons of mass destruction because, after all, we provided him very materials to make chemical and bio-weapons in the 1980s. But no one has accused the United States of providing Saddam with such materials during the 1990s. If it turns out to be true and the Germans are violating international law by supplying Saddam with illegal materials and now stands athwart any efforts to disarm Saddam, what is the true meaning of German policy?

I think it is time for the German people to have a regime change. Schroeder cannot be trusted either by the German people or by Germany's allies.

	20-02-2003 01:29									#147
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The German's also sold biological weapons to Korea (as well as Iraq), or at least the materials needed to make them... For some reason I think Germany is getting ready to stab everyone in the back, right before their eyes.

On a side note, what is with Chirac getting nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize? That's what I heard, is it true? That would really take the cake.

	20-02-2003 01:29									#148
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Could someone explain to me how smallpox can be 'weaponized'? The term is utterly vague and needs to be clarified.

Any use of smallpox by Iraq would of course kill millions across the globe, not just in the target country. In fact, the developed nations would be able to deal with the outbreak much more effectively than in the developing world. Millions would die in Iraq and the other Arab nations.

	20-02-2003 01:42									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Could someone explain to me how smallpox can be 'weaponized'?

The clumps of viral particle are milled to a size, and likely mized with a subtrate, that permits aerosal dispertion from whatever delivery system is used. Similar process to the weaponazation of anthrax bacteria endospores.

	20-02-2003 01:47									#150
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I've always assumed it would also mean increasing an organisms virulence.