19-02-2003 09:34									#31
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quote: Just because a certain segment of population is loudest doesn't mean we should follow their whims.

Granted, democracy is idiotic and the majority are generally morons. This doesn't mean that the majority can't be right, though, and if the majority opposed war, they would be right.

	19-02-2003 09:36									#32
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Granted, democracy is idiotic and the majority are generally morons. This doesn't mean that the majority can't be right, though, and if the majority opposed war, they would be right.

So then your complaint should be that Bush is doing something you feel is immoral, not that Bush is ignoring the people.

	19-02-2003 09:37									#33
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???

If the majority opposed war, then they would be right?

I don't follow the logic. Either you're saying

a) the majority is always right, which it isn't

or

b) you are against war, which means that this debate isn't about the "Voice of the People" any more.

	19-02-2003 09:37									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I believe that's the reason I told you to write your Congressman. If the anti-war movement is really as massive as people claim, it shouldn't be too hard to manage. Incidentally, I was under the impression that the funding for the Iraq War wasn't in the budget. How could it be greanted already?

I intern with one of the more powerful Republicans in Congress and I have to read voluminous amounts of mail. Most of the letters that we are getting in regards to Iraq are form letters that call for longer, more extensive inspections or no war at all. There are very few letters in favor of attacking Iraq. The ratio runs probably ~80 to 1 against attacking Iraq.

As to the Iraq war funding, I can't speak to whether the funding is completely in the Omnibus 2003 bill. From what I've been reading, the Appropriations Chair expects the White House to send a FY03 Supplemental request in March. The estimated size is $20 billion, most of which will go to Defense in one guise or another. That should be enough to carry on the war for at least the beginning of the campaign.

	19-02-2003 09:40									#35
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd "War is my last choice," Bush said at the White House as echoes of anti-war protests circled the globe. "But the risk of doing nothing is even a worse option as far as I am concerned."

Isn't he silly or what? Aren't the weapons inpectors in there doing things?

	19-02-2003 09:41									#36
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quote: So then your complaint should be that Bush is doing something you feel is immoral, not that Bush is ignoring the people.

That's always been true. In this case, my complaint is that he always claims to care what the people want, but in this case is stating he doesn't care what people think.

	19-02-2003 09:42									#37
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He is.

It's sad... such bloodlust. I can see the Arabs' point of view.

	19-02-2003 09:42									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Isn't he silly or what? Aren't the weapons inpectors in there doing things?

Just wasting time when the clock is ticking.

	19-02-2003 09:44									#39
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No clocks.

	19-02-2003 09:47									#40
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Since when are the protesters 'the people'.

	19-02-2003 09:50									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Since when are the protesters 'the people'.

Since they were born, I think.

	19-02-2003 09:52									#42
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Well yes there are many who oppose this war but didn't feel like protesting.

	19-02-2003 09:54									#43
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 No clocks.

Oh, now you are being just as bad as David. In your world view time doesn't exist?

	19-02-2003 09:56									#44
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It does.

	19-02-2003 09:56									#45
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Everyone is missing the real problem here. The question isn't about what America really thinks. That's irrelevant because there is no way to ask every single person in this country. These polls are of small sample sizes and don't even come close to representing 1% of America, let alone the entire country. And DinoDoc made a comment that I disagree with.

quote: The voice of the people is Congress. Write your Congressman to cut funding for the Iraq war.

Congress does not speak for the people. Each congressman (senate and house) have to speak for around 600,000 people. I think that the US is simply too big for the democracy that the Founding Fathers envisioned. Face it, we're relying on a system that is over 200 years old. I don't think I need to tell anybody that things have changed since 200+ years ago. I'm not saying Democracy isn't the answer, I think that the United States needs to be reformed big time. Corporations with big money "speak" for the people. Money buys media exposure, media exposure gets you in the big 2-party vote off at every stage of government except maybe small local and county government.

Bush is ignoring the voice of the people, but of no fault of his own. The system needs to be updated for the 21st century... the confusion on this Iraq thing just proves my point.

	19-02-2003 10:23									#46
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San Francisco had about 100,000 protester. The Greater San Francisco area is around 3,000,000 million. That is 3% of the pop. of the bay area. How many in this country protested?

	19-02-2003 10:24									#47
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Others couldn't be bothered but still are againsgt the war.

Actually I'd say 1 protestor is worth 10 citizens since it takes effort to get off your butt to protest.

	19-02-2003 10:26									#48
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not to mention those on the fence, or those silently wishing it would happen, but knowing it will.

a quarter of the US not supporting this war doesn't sound too far off to me.

	19-02-2003 10:26									#49
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quote: Since they were born, I think.

Well, assuming the protesters are 'the people' in the US... I sure as HELL did not see more than 150 million people out there.

	19-02-2003 10:28									#50
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They are the point of the lance. Then comes the lance proper.

	19-02-2003 10:31									#51
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Bush once again shows that nothing will come between his mad bloodlust for the lives of innocents, not even the voice of a people united against him. Don't worry though my friends, God shall not let him get away with these crimes against humanity. If we do not hold him responsible, he will be held responsible one day and I would not like to be in his shoes when that time comes.

	19-02-2003 10:32									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Everyone is missing the real problem here. The question isn't about what America really thinks. That's irrelevant because there is no way to ask every single person in this country. These polls are of small sample sizes and don't even come close to representing 1% of America, let alone the entire country. And DinoDoc made a comment that I disagree with. Congress does not speak for the people. Each congressman (senate and house) have to speak for around 600,000 people. I think that the US is simply too big for the democracy that the Founding Fathers envisioned. Face it, we're relying on a system that is over 200 years old. I don't think I need to tell anybody that things have changed since 200+ years ago. I'm not saying Democracy isn't the answer, I think that the United States needs to be reformed big time. Corporations with big money "speak" for the people. Money buys media exposure, media exposure gets you in the big 2-party vote off at every stage of government except maybe small local and county government. Bush is ignoring the voice of the people, but of no fault of his own. The system needs to be updated for the 21st century... the confusion on this Iraq thing just proves my point.

Sava, you're under the misconception that people are ignored completely by their Congressmen. Yes, cranks are ignored. But each representative has an extensive staff that get done as much as the Congressman. Citizens, unfortuneatly, have a hard time meeting their representative face to face but have ample opportunity to speak with the staffers who directly influence how a Congressman votes. The actions of each staffer have a heavy bearing on how a Congressman deals with local, state and federal issues. There are case officers whose job is helping constituents with their problems.

Just because you can't stroll into their office and speak with them directly doesn't mean you can't have your voice heard. Most people don't bother to figure out how they can get their voices or issues heard.

"Big Business" may effect some of the "Big Issue" bills, but smaller ones that directly effect the daily lives of people can be influenced.

As to the "Voice of the People", what is that? How do you define what the voice is? Is it the vocal minority who is mobilized to protest? Is the "voice of the people" simply poll numbers on a sheet of paper? Until you actually define what that voice is, you should't claim to be it. There are too many voices out there to claim that they are "the voice". The term "Voice of the People" is largely a populist rhetorical tool that has been tossed around too much to the poing of irrelevancy.

	19-02-2003 10:33									#53
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Presidents should have popular mandates to start things serious as wars. Shrub is saying that he doesn't care if he has such a mandate or not. He's rejecting democracy (again).

	19-02-2003 10:40									#54
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We've rejected democracy from the beginning, Ramo... it's what makes this country great .

	19-02-2003 10:44									#55
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Nah, there was originally some democracy in this country. Then politicians from big cities and big plantations ended it.

	19-02-2003 10:46									#56
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Polular mandates would be crazy. A don't want uninformed idiots making those kind of decisions.

	19-02-2003 10:48									#57
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As opposed to Shrub?

	19-02-2003 10:49									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK A don't want uninformed idiots making those kind of decisions.

Uninformed idiots? The Bush cabinet?

	19-02-2003 10:55									#59
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Asking people about every decision is, I think, direct democracy. Unfortunately, direct democracy worked best in the polis when you didn't have to ask more than a few thousand or a few times ten thousand people. And even then some of them declined to give an opinion.

	19-02-2003 11:03									#60
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Ok, so slightly more than half of the American participants in the survey said they would support war against Iraq, even at the cost of alienating our allies?

I would also like to know the demographics of these survey participants (gender, economic class, ethnicity/race, and religion). That would really reveal what kind of cross-section we're talking about here.