19-02-2003 09:50									#1
	Does democracy require economic prosperity? Put an end to popups!

True democracy of course, where the government do things for the people instead of for the elite. IIRC, it exists in a limited form in some Scandinavian countries.

The CCP is arguing that, and I found an agreement from an expected source. Elton Mayo, in his The Social Problems of an Industrial Civilization, argued that without a high degree of economic prosperity and low inequality, there is no basis for democracy.

Your thoughts?

	19-02-2003 09:52									#2
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Pure Democracy probably wouldn't be very prosperous, economically speaking...

	19-02-2003 10:04									#3
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I suppose you based that on the assumption that a pure democracy will force at least some form of socialism, which is bad for economic prosperity?

	19-02-2003 10:10									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger True democracy of course, where the government do things for the people instead of for the elite. IIRC, it exists in a limited form in some Scandinavian countries. The CCP is arguing that, and I found an agreement from an expected source. Elton Mayo, in his The Social Problems of an Industrial Civilization, argued that without a high degree of economic prosperity and low inequality, there is no basis for democracy. Your thoughts?

Agreed.

It's not absolutely necessairy but it helps a great deal.

When not prosperity people will turn to communism since it is the best model for poor countries (just look how great Cuba is doing compared to Latin America) and the state will turn to fascists.

If prosperity exists democracy will ease more errr easily to society.

Look at Greece. I bet if we were to become dirt poor again, we'd be the majority again communists.

	19-02-2003 10:12									#5
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Greece is actually the perfect model for all that silly social engineering.
Did US/UK backed oppression made a difference?
Did the fascists made a difference?

Did ANYTHING made a difference?


Nope. Wealth made the difference.

	19-02-2003 10:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I suppose you based that on the assumption that a pure democracy will force at least some form of socialism, which is bad for economic prosperity?

No (Psst, I'm a social-democrat, remember )

I based it on the belief that too much bureaucracy is bad for business

	19-02-2003 10:16									#7
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Wealth and true democracy.

It is the same all over the world.

The US can bomb everyone to kingdom come, they'll come backagain blowing up people.

As long as they don't have wealth and democracy, they'll come back

	19-02-2003 10:16									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger True democracy of course, where the government do things for the people instead of for the elite.

I also don't think this is entirely true. Unless of course you mean everyone votes in true democracy...whether they want to or not...

	19-02-2003 11:40									#9
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True democracy hasn't existed at a national level yet anywhere, and I suspect it would become rather unmanagable if it was attempted right now. But you can always dream.

And no, despite the above, I don't think it would require economic prosperity, as long as it's far from economic disaster.

	19-02-2003 11:43									#10
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Obviously Democracy, or most other forms of government for that matter, has it a lot easier to work when the cake that is to be shared is growing, not shrinking.

	19-02-2003 12:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by orange No (Psst, I'm a social-democrat, remember ) I based it on the belief that too much bureaucracy is bad for business

democracy = bureaucracy?

	19-02-2003 12:25									#12
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I think you can find a good example in South Korea too. The outgoing president is the first popularly elected one, and that took place after SK had become one of the Little Tigers.

	19-02-2003 12:31									#13
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First, I think democracy would have to include a classless society, not just a government that worked for everyone. I think if the government worked for everyone then there would be no classes. Second, I don't think capitalism can work that way. Capitalism works best when people behave in their own self-interest and individuals are required to take personal risk. You can't have personal risk without class. The two just can not exist together.

So you have the option of a socialist state that is guided by the market to help allocate resources and you have the option of communism where all the resources are allocated according to community and\or state planning.

I think it's possible to go to a high income communist system from a high income capitalist system. It's never been tried, but I think Communism is more efficient than many people believe.

I'm not too sure that you can go from a high income capitalist system to a high income socialist system. I think you have to flip the whole thing on its head. I think the reason is that with socialism you tend to get the inefficiencies of both systems. People aren't taking on risk and the market is failing.

	19-02-2003 13:58									#14
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Early America wasn't very wealthy, and while it wasn't a true democracy by any measure, it did demonstrate that republicanism can exist in a simple agrarian society.

I think the survival of a democracy is a lot like any other voluntary human relationship. When there's a lot of money, things are pretty easy, because people can get what they want. But even when times are tough, they can stick it through if they're committed to a goal.

	19-02-2003 14:08									#15
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Democracy certainly needs an educated populace in order to be successful, which in turn does requires economic propserity.

	19-02-2003 15:09									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Democracy certainly needs an educated populace in order to be successful, which in turn does requires economic propserity.

Wow, I actually agree with Boddington's.
However, I recall Boddington arguing for education becoming a "deregulated", privatized "service" for which you pay.
I wonder whether this correlates with his attitude towards democracy.

	19-02-2003 15:14									#17
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quote: However, I recall Boddington arguing for education becoming a "deregulated", privatized "service" for which you pay.

As this provides a better education for those that go. Of course you have temporary liquidity constraints, but these can be dealt with through either student loans or a graduate tax (effectively the same thing).

For those that don't have the educational merit, Western nations, particularly the UK, seem to be lacking in skilled labourers right now; good and valuable apprenticeships would apply.

	19-02-2003 18:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger democracy = bureaucracy?

If everyone votes on every issue? Hell yeah.

	19-02-2003 19:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Wow, I actually agree with Boddington's. However, I recall Boddington arguing for education becoming a "deregulated", privatized "service" for which you pay. I wonder whether this correlates with his attitude towards democracy.

And this doesn't work for the United States....how?

	19-02-2003 19:17									#20
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Democracy died a long time ago in the United States.

	19-02-2003 20:20									#21
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No, democracy, or what we know it to be nowadays, does not require economic prosperity. It survives in places with persistent unemployment rates of 30% and negative economic growth. It survives in places with largely illiterate populations.

In the US, it survived abject poverty for about 10 years in the Great Depression and several very bad depressions prior.

	19-02-2003 20:31									#22
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Costa Rica is a sucessful democracy, and certainly not rich. Like DanS said, economic sucess and democracy are not linked. You can be rich and a dictatorship. After all, in the 1980's SArabia had a PCI as high as that of the US and an incredible stardard of living. yet that did nothing for democracy.

I think more important than how wealthy a society is is how the wealth is distributed and achieved. If everyone is relatively poor, but the overall differnces is welath are not too high, and more importantly, the economy has variuous secotrs in which small private business can prosper, then democracy does well; A place were a small caabl controls a huge proportion fo the wealth (no matter how much filters down) and where the sources of income are very limited, and thus easy to control, then democracy suffers.

	19-02-2003 21:51									#23
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Well I think it does, if you look to what happened to the Weimar republic after the crisis.

	19-02-2003 21:55									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Democracy died a long time ago in the United States.

It never existed, and wasn't set up initially. I have no idea why people keep calling it a Democracy.

	19-02-2003 21:57									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DanS No, democracy, or what we know it to be nowadays, does not require economic prosperity. It survives in places with persistent unemployment rates of 30% and negative economic growth. It survives in places with largely illiterate populations. In the US, it survived abject poverty for about 10 years in the Great Depression and several very bad depressions prior.

Barely

	19-02-2003 21:59									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Mattaba Well I think it does, if you look to what happened to the Weimar republic after the crisis.