27-02-2003 19:25									#31
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As lux is going to be a permanent part of our FA environment for awhile, I thought it best if we went back to out 3 thread approach.

So - with GS the other night, jon and I worked out the following deal (and Eli, you would have been proud of us, as at one point we went into the good-cop/bad-cop routine that you and I had used with Trip).

GS and Vox agree to the following:

1. 75 gold immediately to GS from Vox

(now - yes - this first part sucks. Basically, GS is araguing that this is like a tech trade, we split it fairly down the centre. Our argument is that we are the ones giving up the city. I can go along with it because of the follwoing points.)

2. Lux gets writing ftrom us immediately.

3. Lux starts paying us 2 gold per turn for 20 turns.

4. GS completes a deal with Gow for map making at the cost of code of laws and 30 gold.

5. Vox gets map making from GS. Vox pays GS 15 gold when that deal is done.

6. Vox gives map making to Lux.

7. Lux gives its world map to both Vox and GS when it gets map making.

8. Lux gives construction to Vox when it is done.

9 Vox gives construction to GS when recieved.

10 Vox agrees to sit on Philosophy for awhile to delay the continental civs timing towards the republic.

11 GS researches The Republic next and gives it to Vox.

12. we will start research on an agreed-upon tech.

13. GS will not trade the republic to other civs. Nor will we.

14 This deal is non-negotiable by Lux.

Last edited by Beta on 28-02-2003 at 09:18

	27-02-2003 19:57									#32
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have you talked to trip?

Jon Miller

	28-02-2003 01:10									#33
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Is that gold in 1 from Lux or Vox? Other than that, I think this is an OK deal.

We need to contact Lego and find out when they expect to be launching galleys. Are they planning on building the Great Lighthouse? Their chances of making it to the main continent are significantly greater with it.

	28-02-2003 09:18									#34
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Harry - yes - you are right. The gold is from us to GS.
Above post edited.

Jon - not yet. I haven't had time. Major RL event.

	28-02-2003 13:07									#35
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OK looks good to me.

Let's hope everyone holds their end of the bargain. I like the idea of getting republic from GS.

	28-02-2003 22:45									#36
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Received the letter in the correspondence thread from GoW. It is offering a trade for map making in around 5 turns.

Jon - you or I are going to have to co-ordinate wuth GS how we handle relations and communications on stuff like this. The good news is that our tech arrangement with GS is clearly a well-kept secret, as GoW still thinks they can trade MM with us. Perhaps holding back passing on HorseBack Riding was useful in keeping off track. In other words, if GoW traded HB riding to us - as they did - and the next turn it ended up with GS - they might put 2 and 2 together.

The other thing we need to think about and I guess sooner than later now - is getting across the straight. I presume that GoW and NeuD are expanding into the old Lux territory - which I presume was the closest to us. If we get MM in the next 5 or 6 turns - we should start strategizing on having a galley and a settler and a couple of spearmen to go as soon as possible.

The temple build in Elpolis can be converted to a galley. The settler is going to take a bit of time. I do not want to abondon the granary projects for this. We will have settlers out soon after they are built.

	28-02-2003 23:03									#37
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I agree. We should think about getting a settler over across the straight while there is still land left unclaimed.

	28-02-2003 23:13									#38
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we can build one granary fairly fast can't we?

we should have the galley ready to go. And should keep permanent duty in the straight probably in case we need to ferry troops over there.

	01-03-2003 00:23									#39
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quote: I agree. We should think about getting a settler over across the straight while there is still land left unclaimed.

Definetely, having a "base" over there is very important strategically.

If GoW and NeuD decide to take over that base there wont be much for us to do to prevent it, so it will also be much more important to keep good relations with them. But that might not be easy since we harbor Lux.

	01-03-2003 00:26									#40
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quote: BFM led me to believe that scientific civs always get the same free techs, but I do not know this, so perhaps someone from Vox knows for certain.

I know for certain. It's the same tech. Monotheism, Nationalism and another tech in the Modern Age, probably Rocketry though i'm not sure.

	01-03-2003 00:53									#41
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quote: Eli wrote: I know for certain. It's the same tech. Monotheism, Nationalism and another tech in the Modern Age, probably Rocketry though i'm not sure.

In the early days if Civ3 occasionally I would get a different tech. At times I got Steam Power, Computers, and Ecology. One of the patches seems to made the free tech a fixed thing (possibly a decision based on some factors that are now constant instead of having a random selection). You are right, in the Modern Era it is Rocketry.

	01-03-2003 05:12									#42
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quote: In PTW 1.21f patch description: * Improved random free tech selection for the Scientific civ trait.

I wonder what that means.

	01-03-2003 05:25									#43
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That the free tech will hopefully be random.

	01-03-2003 12:57									#44
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I'm not sure. I never play scientific civs

	01-03-2003 13:20									#45
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The patch cannot be applied to existing games though IIRC.

	01-03-2003 21:04									#46
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According to WarpStorm, the patch can be applied to existing games. As a matter of fact, my patner and I continued our LAN game last night with the latest patch applied - It works Great!

	01-03-2003 22:12									#47
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It can be applied, but if i'm not mistaken the game itself will play using the rules of the old patch.

That's why, I think, in our game we can rename units, while in PBEM games I play in and were started before the pre-last patch was out, you cant. Despite all players having the patch.

	01-03-2003 23:08									#48
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Ah, I see your point Eli.

	02-03-2003 03:46									#49
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I have posted a PM from Trip in the correspondence column. This is getting frustrating dealing with them. Maybe we need poll on putting them out of their misery. And btw - the 75 gold is already gone to GS.

Comments? Suggestions?

	02-03-2003 04:11									#50
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advice on lux

tell lux that we had to pay off GS not to destroy them

also tell them that they will not get construction for 40 turns, so it is not worth a whole lot to us (since we will nto be getting it for a long time) it is just enough to make the deal worth it

Jon Miller

	02-03-2003 12:59									#51
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I say we just put them out of their misery

Don't think I haven't thought of that.

Why give New Demo the satisfaction of destroying lux when we can do it. Their settler is gone. So if we take that city they are toast right?

very enticing.

	03-03-2003 12:33									#52
	Increase the size of your Attachments

in regards to the other thread.

the 1.21 patch probably wont' apply to this game. I don't think we'll get much out of a scientific civ this game.

	03-03-2003 20:32									#53
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Regarding the latest correspondence with GoW, my comments:

Theoretically we could trade philosophy for mm, but this would not make too much sense. We could do it in 6 turns - which is only 6 or so ahead of when we will get it anyway. And this keeps philosophy out of the hands of the continental civs, which gives us some lead time on government changes. But as I mentioned in my letter to Nathan, we need to work on covering our tracks with respect to the trade arrangement with GS and ourselves.

	03-03-2003 22:46									#54
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See communications for my response to GS. Jon and I discussed this briefly in a chat yesterday.

I'm still unsure if this is all worth it, and whether we shouldn't just finish them off.

Last edited by Beta on 03-03-2003 at 22:56

	03-03-2003 23:06									#55
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Update - I pulled that last letter to Nathan of Gs back given the recent polling results. needs further discussion or a decision.

	03-03-2003 23:32									#56
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See the latest note from BFM in the correspondence thread. Doesn't look like they are too worried about anything.

One thought that has come to mind. If Lux can get MM cheaply and soon, then we could get it from them earlier, and not have to worry about the 10 turn delay with respect to GS. On the other hand, I presume GoW has put the same restrictions on Lux as they would on GS. I'm just not sure why Lux would even respect such conditions, given that GoW was recently about to do them in.

Guess this all depends on whether we think Lux is worth keeping around.

	04-03-2003 06:16									#57
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OK - just finished a long chat with Trip. He sounds reasonably sincere.

He has a deal to get map making from GoW for 40 gold, AND he does not kill the lone Lux worker left on the continent. GoW gets that.

To get map making, they need the 40 gold. And I think we should get 20 of it from GS.

And they need writing.

The gold they need now - as GoW is close to their worker. Writing they will not need for 2 or three turns. GoW will not be ready with map making for another 4 turns.

They are building a worker for us as per the accord. And they are committed to the 6 techs, 2 each era starting with the middle ages. Or so he says.

Also got some other interesting info. He says the straight separating the continents was about 10 tiles from the Lux capitol, and about 20 from GoW and Neu D. Whicj means we should have some time. Also - we will be culturally dominant in that area of the world. A city on the hill across the straight is within 4 tiles of The Voice. And would give us a dominant position overlooking the straight.

He also mentioned that the continental civs are arming up - and that tensions are high between them. This indeed may be the case. Turns are taking a lot longer these days to play. I suspect something may be going on.

So - I am tempted to try this deal. We get mm well before GS was planning on providing it. And if I can convince GS to buy into this - it will only cost us 20 gold.

I certainly don't sense that GS and Lux are scheming over anything.

One thing my wife thought of - (leave it to women - and a scorpio at that) - she hypthesised that the entire Lux extinction may have been a hoax by Neu D, GoW, and Lux. And that as soon as map making and galleys are widely available, a large invasion force will land at Portia and other spots on the continent. Great idea. But I don't think they could have masterminded something of this scope, including all the talk in the public forums and in the inter-site forum as well.

Anyways - I am leaning to giving them a second lease on life.

Comments?

	04-03-2003 07:09									#58
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

One thing to add here with respect to the above:

I am playing the turn now, and trying to figure out when we would have a settler, a galley and a spearman set to go.

We can get a galley out of Elipolis in 6 turns by cutting the other forest, adjacent to the one we are cutting now.

We will only have a settler out of The Voice in 10 turns. Plus the one turn to move to Wittlich city where presumably the galley will be.

And a spearman - hmmm- we would have to use one of our two current spearmen.

This may be a bit rushed. Which then puts into question the value of getting map making any earlier. Also - we still would not have iron connected yet until Miller Town produces a settler. Say some 15 turns or so.

Thoughts?

	04-03-2003 07:14									#59
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Sounds good.

The tensions and military build up may be between GoW and RP. When I was going through all those FA thread pages I made a note about them. Something about a treaty violation and claiming of territory. The more they spend building (and replacing) military the less they spend on infrastructure. In the long run that will hurt them (unless one of them takes over most of the continent and becomes a big powerhouse).

Last edited by HarryH on 04-03-2003 at 07:22

	04-03-2003 07:56									#60
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Beta, I am glad you finally had a heart-to-heart talk with Trip.
Ok, because of this latest info, I too agree that we should abide by our agreement with Lux...for the time being.

RE: Getting Mapmaking any earlier - You are right Beta, getting any earlier will not help us to get the settler/spearman/galley package together any earlier for our foothold on their continent.