05-03-2003 07:10									#31
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OK guys. This starts to get messy. The next two letters - this one from GoW and the next from Roleplay really have me thinking. See the discussion thread:

mapmaking negotiations
Betahound,

Please deal with the Glory of War directly, as negotiating through your Luxian puppets is a waste of both our time.

Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

	05-03-2003 07:11									#32
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And from Togas of Roleplay:

From Roleplay: Regarding Lux Invicta
Betahound,

This is a delicate matter that I felt would be better addressed with a letter from one leader to another. I don't want to funnel the message through a few ambassadors, as it might not be communicated very well.

My nation and yours have no formal relations and other than a few talks I had with Jon Miller ... back when he was your leader, we really haven't talked. We have not completed any deals with you, nor have we received any offers. Furthermore, it seems that when we do make offers, they are ignored.

On Sunday I received a message from Trip of Lux Invicta telling me that he was sorry, but that he could not go through with the deal we had made regarding Writing, because he "has to" trade with your nation instead. When I pressed him in chat he was evasive, couldn't explain it much further, but kept insisting that in his curent situation he had "no choice" but to trade with Vox instead of Spain.

Now, I wouldn't want to seem too paranoid, but it does seem to us that Vox Controli is acting in a very hostile mannor to Spain. We'd like to understand why it is that Vox is so disinterested in maintaining a friendship with Spain and why you would threaten Lux in such a mannor that they would cancel a deal they had with us.

I think that our two nations should sit down and discuss this very soon, at least before the cold shoulder turns into a cold war. We have relations with your rivals, Gathering Storm, and we trade with them. We would like to also trade with you.

Please contact me soon so that we can personally discuss this.

--Togas

	05-03-2003 07:45									#33
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Damage control, with RolePlay:

Togas - my apologies that it has come to this. We meant no offence. And trust me on this one when I say that if you are frustrated by recent events, we are many times more so. Our good intent is clearly not what has come across through Lux, and as you can guess, the story is somewhat different than is being relayed to you. Hostility towards you has never been one of our intentions.

We had little idea as to what was being presented to the international community, and I regret that I have not contacted RolePlay earlier to set the matter straight. We value RP's early friendship. We also value our reputation, which appears to getting dragged through the mud without our knowledge, and based on incorrect information.

I appreciate you writing me. We have some serious deliberations at Vox. I will touch base shortly with you for a longer conversation. For now, you have Vox's apologies, and our best regards.

Sincerely ... Beta

	05-03-2003 07:58									#34
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Damage control, with Glory of War.

Panzer32 - my apologies that it has come to this. We meant no offence. And trust me on this one when I say that if you are frustrated by recent events, we are many times more so. Our good intent is clearly not what has come across through Lux, and as you can guess, the story is somewhat different than is being relayed to you.

We had little idea as to what was being presented to the international community, and I regret that I have not contacted Glory of War earlier to set the matter straight, and to discuss the map making proposal. Our not getting back to you was a function of two things. Fisrt - I have been very busy on a number of fronts. But secondly - we do not have anything to trade with you now or in the near future. We had a technology research issue - maybe indecision would be the better word - that has set us back somewhat. But we would still like to discuss a potential trade. We do have gold.

We value Glory of War's early friendship and the trades we have made. We also value our reputation, which appears to getting dragged through the mud without our knowledge, and based on incorrect information.

It was never our intent to use Lux as a 'puppet' trading nation, nor to have them act in that role. We are more than disturbed that this is the message or image being relayed to you.

I appreciate you being frank with me, as I have been with you. We have some serious deliberations to be done at Vox. I will touch base shortly with you for a longer conversation. For now, you have Vox's apologies, and our best regards.

Sincerely ... Beta

	05-03-2003 20:22									#35
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GoW's response.

RE: Re: mapmaking negotiations
Thank you for this clarification. A deal with Gold may be possible with our team .

	06-03-2003 08:48									#36
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sent this evening to Trip:

(if this is agame, why do I feel like a heel. )

Trip.

Sorry this didn't work out. The situation was becoming untenable for Vox. A decison was made this evening to take back Portia. We feel it is best for Vox to do so, but we are also sad that our initiative and accord did not work out.

I don't really want to get into any back and forth on this. Our team has agreed to be fairly silent publicy on the matter, other than the announcement made this evening in the public forum. We do not want to add insult to injury.

Rest assured - this was not a decision we took lightly. You will be missed from the game.

Our regards to you and your team. Please pass this message on to them. Thank-you.

.... BetaHound - on behalf of Vox Controli.

	06-03-2003 09:06									#37
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You shouldn't feel like a heel Beta. Like you said - Yes, it was a tough decison for us to make....but Trip's actions left us no choice in the matter.

	06-03-2003 09:17									#38
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And to Nathan Barclay of Gathering Storm.

Hi Nathan.

You may have read it already, but Vox Controli made a decision this evening to take back Portia, thus eliminating Lux Invicta. We can talk at greater length later, but right now I am kind of worn out. It was not a decision we took lightly, but the situation was indeed becoming untenable for us. Trip and Lux were quite a handful, and a number of things were not playing out well in the international arena, courtesy of them.

I am somewhat saddened by it. It is only a game, but it is unfortunate for one team to exit so early. Ah - the value of diplomacy. If it had worked, it would have been interesting to see if they could have come back.

You should also know that the decision was unanimous at our end. There is an announcement in the public forum. That will be our only public comment on the matter.

We have some fence-mending to be done, and I will need to talk to you further about the GoW and map making situation.

A couple of other things - I was able to get philosophy down another turn through some tweaking and prioritizing - now 2 turns remaining. And any thoughts on what we should plan on reseraching next. We should compare notes about what the other civs are doing.

And oh yes - RolePlay offered us literature this turn. We need to discuss both RP and GoW and how we keep them from getting wind of, and getting upset with, our trading relationship.

We have not mentioned philosophy to anyone at this point in time.

Regards - from a sombre Beta.

	06-03-2003 09:18									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich You shouldn't feel like a heel Beta. Like you said - Yes, it was a tough decison for us to make....but Trip's actions left us no choice in the matter.

Thanks Witt. I appreciate the comments.

	06-03-2003 13:27									#40
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from Roleplay.

Dissident,

Thank you for writing us. I have posted your message to our Diplomacy Forum.

I think it would be beneficial to us both to find a time to meet in chat and discuss some of our concerns and perhaps clear up the story with Lux Invicta. We generally only hear Lux's side of the story, as Trip is very talkative and very proactive with diplomacy. I'd like to know what Vox is going through and hear your side of the story.

Please talk with Betahound and see if a chat can be arranged, perhaps this weekend?

--Togas

	06-03-2003 23:16									#41
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I guess we should try and arrange a meeting with RP. It would be helpful to cementing our long term relationship.

I am Ok for this weekend.

	06-03-2003 23:17									#42
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And now back to rgular business - tech tading letter received from GS and my response:

Greetings to you as well, Nathan.

I think the Literature and Horseback riding deal works well. We are in no great hurry for literature, so we can wait a few more turns to further obfuscate things. Gow did not put a time limit on the no-trade matter. They wanted a chance to negotiate directly with you - which from the sounds of it, they have had a couple of chances to do. But we can wait a bit longer.

Regarding GoW, I am recommending that we buy MapMaking from them for cash. I suspect I can get it 40 gold, maybe a bit more. This has several advantages. The first and most important to both of us in the long term is that it will further camouflage our tech agreement. Secondly, it gets us around the no-trade time limit, which is not part of our treaty, but which is being imposed by GoW. And thirdly, from Vox's perspective, it will do a little fence mending with GoW after certain issues arose regarding dealings with Lux.

May I also suggest that as we both have a stake in this, that GS contribute 20 gold to this purchase. I know I had recommended that you forward 20 gold to Lux as part of the previouslly proposed agreement. If you did in fact forward it, then the smallish treasury we obtained from Portia would have included it. If not, may I ask that you consider the merits in sharing a part of this purchase.

Incidentally - when GoW asked about trading techs, we told them that we had major indecision in techs, had to restart research, and are a long way from completing anything. You are the only ones who are aware that we are researching philosophy, and that it is almost done.

And again - we need to discuss what would be in the alliance's best interests for Vox to research next.

The international fall-out from the demise of Lux has been limited, and the reporting very balanced. Vox is relieved to get on with 'normal' business. The last few days have not been happy ones at Vox.

Trust all is well with you and the GS team.

Regards .... Beta.

quote: nbarclay wrote on 06-03-2003 03:49: Greetings, Literature is on its way; it's up to you whether you want to get it now or later. One thing we've been thinking is that if you would send us back Horseback Riding right after we send you Literature (so the gifts look like a single trade deal from an outside perspective), it would look to anyone who is watching (and able to watch) as if we made some sort of deal involving Literature and Horseback Riding. That might cause problems if GoW catches the arrangement and regards its expctation for you not to sell Horseback Riding as still in effect after all this time, but at least it doesn't leave the appearance of techs flowing every which way as gifts between us. If you think that sounds like a good way to handle things, please send us back Horseback Riding when your turn comes. (We're starting to get tired of GoW's pestering us to buy Horseback Riding from them.) If GoW specified a particular time limit on your not selling Horseback Riding, though, we probably ought to abide by it. Nathan

	06-03-2003 23:19									#43
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Related to the above is an earlier response from GoW. Panzer32, to our damage control letter.

RE: Re: mapmaking negotiations
Thank you for this clarification. A deal with Gold may be possible with our team .

	07-03-2003 07:38									#44
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Received from Togas.

From Roleplay to Vox Controli
Betahound,

Wow... hard to comment on the demise of Lux Invicta. Seems ironic that it was your nation that destroyed them, with everyone else on my nation so rabbidly anti-Lux. They would have been dead quite a while ago if not for your team's very costly gift to them of a city. Trip had come to me with a similar proposal and I turned him down immediately. My team doesn't have extra cities to give away, I doubt yours did either.

Any chance you'll ever go public with why things turned out so bad? I can't help but wonder if my own PM to you about Trip's comments sparked some sort of change of heart by your nation. If that were the case, I would feel horrible.

But back to business, we would like to trade you Literature. We'd like to know if you have anything to offer in exchange for it. If not, we'd like to find out what you're researching now and possibly trade you Literature for it when you're done. Please get back to me soon on this.

I'm also very curious about how things are going over there. Looking at what the Domestic Guys from Gathering Storm are proposing for our ISDG team ... I'm positive they're using a similar borg style for Gathering Storm's cities. I'm going to be very curious to see how your style of building matches up with the Storm's experts. Maybe sometime you'll let us know ... especially if you guys end up taking them out.

Lastly, my Ambassador, Nuclear Winter, has returned and should be contacting you shortly. If you hear from him and me, please feel free to contact him first.

Thanks!

--Togas

	07-03-2003 21:06									#45
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quote: Now your team may have a little more insight into how it was Lux got attacked by every civ they border.

Ghengis Farb on an "unofficial channel".

	07-03-2003 23:13									#46
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I sent this to Betahound, but his PM box is full.

quote:
Betahound,

The Glory of War will aquire map making next turn. Please get a deal together so that you will not be lost out in the tech trading. As I said earlier, a trade tech for gold/map/whatever instead of tech is possible.

Thank You

Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

	07-03-2003 23:14									#47
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I posted a message in the FA thread. Glory will have map making next turn and wants us to offer a deal.

doh! I wanted to post this in the other FA thread. oh well

Last edited by Dis on 07-03-2003 at 23:23

	08-03-2003 03:59									#48
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From nathan of GS. Any thoughts?


Greetings,

We have a clue from Trip that someone is researching Construction, but we don't really know otherwise. I think at the moment, GS is leaning in the direction of thinking Polytheism might be a good choice, if only because with your relatively low research speed, it's something you could get in a reasonable amount of time. (No offense intended; just realistic evaluation.) Also, it occurs to me that there's a chance all three Bobian civs mght neglect Polytheism since it doesn't really do anything directly, leading to a possibility of a trade without having to give up Republic.

If we come up with any other thoughts before you play your turn, we'll let you know, but I wanted to go ahead and make sure you have our current thougts now.

Oh, and whoever sent Horseback Riding last turn forgot to click Accept before sending it. Please don't forget with Philosophy or it will mean a one-turn delay for Republic!

Nathan

	08-03-2003 04:52									#49
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sounds good

Jon Miller

	08-03-2003 05:57									#50
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Sent to GoW - Panzer32.

Hi Panzer32.

Interesting week in the world. I noted your 'ooops' comment in the public forum thread regarding our announcement about Lux. And yes - you're right - it was a contributing factor.

But that is behind us. Map making. My apologies again for not getting in touch with you sooner. We would like to offer 40 gold in exchange for map making. We acknowledge that it is not a great sum of gold, but the tech is becoming readily available and could be worth nothing shortly. We also promise not to trade it to GS. We had gotten wind from Lux that there was some sort of deal in the works between GoW and GS, and I can only presume it involved map making. We will not mess up that deal on you.

Let me know if this is acceptable, and we can conclude the transaction shortly.

I wish GoW all the best prosperity in this new era of peace we now find ourselves.

Regards .... Beta.

	08-03-2003 06:35									#51
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Received from Togas of RP via e-mail with the save. Now I really regret doing in Lux based partly on the previous letter from RP.

"My turnplayer was away, so I couldn't do turn until I got back from work.


I just have to ask why it is that Vox won't respond to any of our trade offers?
Why treat us this way? Why make deals with Gathering Storm for Literature when
you know that we want to also sell it to you, and that we worked tirelessly for
hundreds of years to create this knowledge? Why not even write us back a simple
letter saying that you'r sorry, but you decided to buy it from someone else??

Please TALK to us at least. Even if you won't buy anything from us or trade with
us, we'd at least like to know why we are being ignored.

--Togas"

	08-03-2003 07:43									#52
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Hah... response from GoW.

RE: Map Making
Betahound,

Thank you for your message!

I imagine our team would be willing to trade mapmaking for 40 gold, if you gave us your world map as well. If you cannot give world map, then the gold would be sigificantly higher. I have not consulted with my team on this, but please show it to your team and tell me what they say.

God Bless,

Panzer32
Foreign Affairs Consul for the Glory of War

	08-03-2003 19:15									#53
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I had PM'd Shiber thanking him for his comment in the public forum, and he asked if he could post my PM in the GS forum. I said OK. Here are the messages.

RE: Insightful
No problem.
I'm always happy to help our allies.

Btw, is it okay if I post this message to the GS forum or would you like me to keep it between us?

.... Shiber

quote:


Shiber - you posted this in the thread where we announced Lux's demise:

"I'm really sorry to see this happen, but such are the rules of the game. It's too bad though, that Vox have thrown Lux the lifeline and yet Lux was ungrateful and uncooperative and gave Vox hell in negotiations. I hate to see Lux go, but I think it's mainly their fault - you can't play several civs against each other forever, especially not when your continued existence depends on one of those civs."

It struck me as the most insightful comment yet made about the situation from someone who was not directly involved. We at Vox are not feeling too good about what we did, so it was helpful to see that some folks understood the issue from our perspective.

Thank-you. ... Beta.

	08-03-2003 19:36									#54
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From GoW - it would appear that this trade is definitel off. Another reason we should not have done Luz in.

Any ideas on a proposed response? And I guess we ask GS for map making now. sigh ....

more maps...
Betahound,

The Glory of War populus does not agree with the 40g + world map for map making trade. Here are some options we have for you:

1. 80 gold + world map for map making
2. 120 gold for map making
3. 5gpt + world map for map making
4. 40 gold + world map for map making, providing you give us either your next tech (that GoW does not already have), or your free tech in the next age for 40 gold.

Panzer32
Foreign Affaris Consul for the Glory of War

	08-03-2003 20:15									#55
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I have checked the last turn - and neither GoW or Neu D have literature. This may help us. To be sure, I have checked with GS:

Hi nathan - GoW is making some very unreasonable demands regarding Map Making. Are you Ok with us offering them literature as part of a trade, or were there strings attached to your trade with RP.

RP is giving us grief about trading with you for literature by the way.

...Beta.

	09-03-2003 00:45									#56
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To Panzer32:

Re: more maps...
I'm afraid that none of your proposals are acceptable to Vox. We would like to present you with a counter-offer of 40 gold plus literature. Please let us know. Thank-you.
... Beta.

	09-03-2003 02:06									#57
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Ghengis Farb just posted this in the game save thread. Guess we find out soon enough whether that includes us.

"Sent to Togas, oliverfa and Dejon.

Yarhoo! Mapmaking for everyone!"