Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Guilty in over 3000 cases....
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread    < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 18:24 Visit BeBro's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Guilty in over 3000 cases.... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
HAMBURG, Germany -- A German court has jailed a Moroccan man for 15 years after convicting him of aiding the September 11 suicide hijackers in the first trial anywhere of a suspected attack conspirator.

Mounir el Motassadeq, a 28-year-old electrical engineering student, was found guilty of being an accessory to 3,045 murders in New York and Washington and being a member of a terrorist organisation.

CNN's Matthew Chance said the 15-year sentence was the maximum the court could impose under German law. Much of the evidence was cirumstantial and he was convicted by association with other al Qaeda members and not by direct evidence, Chance said.

In addition to the 3,045 counts of accessory to murder, he was convicted of five counts of attempted murder and bodily injury.

Prosecutors alleged he provided logistical support for the Hamburg al Qaeda cell that included lead hijacker Mohamed Atta, who piloted one of the two airliners that crashed into the World Trade Center.

Police blocked off the street in front of the Hamburg courthouse on Wednesday morning as dozens of journalists queued for tight security screening to enter the building.

El Motassadeq consistently denied the charges during his three-and-a-half-month trial and his lawyers were seeking an acquittal from the five-judge panel.

During the trial the defendant acknowledged he knew the six other alleged members of the Hamburg cell -- Atta plus two other pilots of the airliners, Ziad Jarrah and Marwan al-Shehhi; and logisticians Ramzi Binalshibh, Said Bahaji and Zakariya Essabar.


El Motassadeq admits knowing the alleged leader of the al Qaeda plot, Mohamed Atta.
Of Atta, the Moroccan told CNN shortly before his arrest in the fall of 2001: "We visited each other, talked like normal friends."

But he said he knew nothing of the plans for September 11.

"I couldn't believe that people I knew could do something like that," el Motassadeq said in his closing statement last week. "I watched it on television and I was shocked ... I can only hope that something like September 11 never happens again."

But witnesses testified that el Motassadeq, a slight, bearded man, was as radical as the rest of the group, talking of jihad -- holy war -- and his hatred of Israel and the United States.

The defendant himself admitted training in a camp run by Osama bin Laden -- the al Qaeda chief alleged by the U.S. to be the mastermind of the September 11 attacks -- in Afghanistan in 2000.

Prosecutors alleged el Motassadeq used his power of attorney over al-Shehhi's bank account to pay rent, tuition and utility bills, allowing the plotters to keep up the appearance of being normal students in Germany.

El Motassadeq argued he was simply providing an innocent service to friends and that he took weapons training in Afghanistan because he believed all Muslims should learn to shoot.

The defence tried several times unsuccessfully to obtain testimony by two of el Motassadeq's friends, Ramzi Binalshibh and Mohammed Haydar Zammar -- a lack of evidence that the lawyers say could be grounds for an appeal in case of a guilty verdict.


Prosecutors allege el Motassadeq provided logistical support for the World Trade Center attacks.
Binalshibh, a Yemeni suspect in U.S. custody, is believed to have been the Hamburg cell's key contact with al Qaeda. Zammar, an alleged al Qaeda recruiter in Hamburg, is in prison in Syria.

The court failed to get the men released to testify and German authorities refused to turn over their files on the two, saying transcripts of their interrogations were provided to them on condition they only be used for intelligence purposes.

Motassadeq, a member of a middle-class family, came to Germany in 1993 to study. By 1995, he was studying electrical engineering in Hamburg, where he is believed to have first met Atta no later than the following year.

Lawyers representing Americans who lost family members on September 11 had said they would appeal if el Motassadeq did not receive close to the maximum sentence. Family members are allowed to be co-plaintiffs under German law.

Family members of American victims became co-plaintiffs and testified in court, including Stephen Push, who lost his his wife in the September 11 attack on New York.

"One of the most disturbing things about the case was the discovery that the German authorities knew much about this al Qaeda cell years prior to the September 11 attack," he told CNN.

"Just like the authorities in the United States -- the FBI and CIA -- they were aware of some of these individuals, have been tracking them and yet were not able to connect the dots, were not able to use that information to prevent the attacks."


From http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europ...rial/index.html

Discuss

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

Donate to the Red Cross
Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 18:38 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Prosecutors alleged he provided logistical support for the Hamburg al Qaeda cell that included lead hijacker Mohamed Atta

not even small fish
tiny fish.....

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:01
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

But a fish nonetheless.

-Arrian

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:02
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Or at least aquatic in his tendencies

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:13 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

Why does Germany have such low sentencing guidelines? 3,000 cases of accessory to murder should put you behind bars for the rest of your life, at least.

dudemanjack is offline dudemanjack
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 00:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

DanS: I was thinking the same thing. 3000 accessory to murder charges and you get the MAXIUMUM of 15 years? In the U.S. he'd have like 100 life sentences or some ridiculous sentence like 1000 years to life.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Why does Germany have such low sentencing guidelines? 3,000 cases of accessory to murder should put you behind bars for the rest of your life, at least.


Because they are a democracy and theats what their parliament has legislated for.(mandatory life sentences aer uncommon in europe) In Englan you get sentenced to life for attempted murder but it doesn't mean that. It just means you are liable for recall to prison if you are naughty once you are released.

15 years is quite a long time in terms of european sentencing.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:25 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

Yes, I gathered that. But doesn't it strike you as disproportionate? This guy helped in the murder of 3,000 people.

Edit: To be clear, I am happy that the German authorities were thorough and got the conviction. No complaints there at all.

Last edited by DanS on 19-02-2003 at 20:32

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:33
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Yes, I gathered that. But doesn't it strike you as disproportionate? This guy helped in the murder of 3,000 people.

Edit: To be clear, I am happy that the German authorities were thorough and got the conviction. No complaints there at all.


Yes, he should be in for a lot longer than 15 years.

I think it smacks of the judge not really thinking he was very involved though.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:34
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

As far as the article goes, the main reason for the low sentence is that the quality of the vidence is low. There was ntohing to directly tie him to Atta. If there had been direct evidence, the authorities would have been able to bing tougher charges against him.

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

Donate to the Red Cross
Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:35 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

quote:
This guy helped in the murder of 3,000 people.
math works both ways. how many hours were spent on the preparation of the attack? how many hours did this guy spent for the preparation?

do the math

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:38 Visit DanS's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

do the math

What? He has his master's degree in terrorism from OBLU.

MarkG is offline MarkG
Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see

Donate to the Red Cross
Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 20:44 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Osama Bin Laden University?

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 21:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

I'd castrate these guys... then put them in a prison where all the guards are super-butch women. Coming from a culture where women are dosile and treated like property, it's a fitting punishment.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 21:32 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

15 years. Send the guy to Texas.

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 22:13
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

15 years? Not much, but better than what he would have gotten in Denmark... I believe he would proberbly have gotten like 10 years... but for some other reason, he got out after 10 days...

Danish court system is the worst I've ever heard about... We even have a guy "in jail", but he's running his own television show, while in prison (which means he gets out of the prison to make the show)... or so I've heard...

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 22:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by ADG
We even have a guy "in jail", but he's running his own television show, while in prison (which means he gets out of the prison to make the show)...

Jail is usually meant to be a punishment, not serve as a hotel.

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:26
  Old Post 19-02-2003 23:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Try to tell that to our court system...

  < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:26.
Apolyton Time is 00:26.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0544 seconds (89.77% PHP - 10.23% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net