20-02-2003 09:41									#31
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"The nerds at my school weren't necessarily the smart kids, they were just the obnoxious kids with no social skills -- their lack of social skills was generally compounded by their overwhelming arrogance (their feeling of intellectual superiority). They were picked on, but by-and-large they brought it upon themselves, and I had little pity for them."

What you fail to understand is that some people are simply not good at school. I am sure if those students knew how to not be obnoxious, they would not be. Maybe some things they do wrong seemed obvious to you but it wasn't to them. Moreover, even if they are obnoxious it doesn't merit being picked on.

"The author reckons that it is the girls who are forming the strata in schools."

Could be, I doubt that it is due to children not having meaning in their lives though, since there have been reported instances of workplace bullying.

	20-02-2003 09:57									#32
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Far and away the best part of the article is that in groups where's there's no kind of half-way objective measure to form hierarchies around (or nothing to get people to act in a solidaristic manner, which he left out) is when you get really nasty popularity contest kind of social organization which is really harmful.
Luckily my HS was clique-based instead of popularity hierarchy-based so I got to be a relatively happy introvert...

	20-02-2003 10:00									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I am sure if those students knew how to not be obnoxious, they would not be. Maybe some things they do wrong seemed obvious to you but it wasn't to them.

Meh, I've always believed that you shouldn't start what you can't finish. If somebody were minding their own business and (on a whim) some jocks gave him a swirlie, then I'd feel for the poor guy. The thing is, that never happened where I went to school -- the introverts (the smart folks who pretty much just minded their own business) weren't picked on. Rather, what would happen is that (on a whim) some arrogant twerp would insult a jock's intelligence, the jock would give the nerd a swirlie (well, in my experience nobody was ever actually given a swirlie, but you get the idea), and the nerd would shout at the top of his lungs "You're just picking on me because I'm smarter than you, oh woe is me." Tough toes for the nerd -- he's no different from the bully who doles out the swirlies, except that he's playing to a different strength. Maybe the nerd just doesn't understand that people don't like to be insulted, and maybe the bully just doesn't understand that people don't like to have their heads shoved in a toilet.

	20-02-2003 10:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Are you retarded? Do you think bullying is only an American problem? Too bas it's not possible to reduce your age and throw you into the Japanese school system.

Shi, if you couldn't tell that was a BLATANT troll, then your the one whos "retarded".

Although I must admit, at least when compared to RUSSIA, America seems to have a huge problem when it comes to the mistreatment of intellects in the school system.

	20-02-2003 10:46									#35
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"The thing is, that never happened where I went to school -- the introverts (the smart folks who pretty much just minded their own business) weren't picked on. "

Really? I haven't known that to be the case.

"Rather, what would happen is that (on a whim) some arrogant twerp would insult a jock's intelligence, "

Is it always that clear cut though? I agree if someone goes up to somebody and delibarately insults them, retaliation is understanble. Maybe the nerd said something that was insulting but didn't realize that was the case? At least in my school I never knew people to insult/attack people more popular then them unless provoked.

"

Shi, if you couldn't tell that was a BLATANT troll, then your the one whos "retarded". "

Hey, if you put that low effort into a troll like that, you reap what you saw when you get immolated. Decent trolls at least have some basis in reality.

"
Although I must admit, at least when compared to RUSSIA, America seems to have a huge problem when it comes to the mistreatment of intellects in the school system."

Weren't scientists elevated to the top of social heap during the socialist era? That's not the case in any Western country...

	20-02-2003 11:24									#36
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quote: Hey, if you put that low effort into a troll like that, you reap what you saw when you get immolated.

Now your whining to me simply because you played into my troll. Boo hoo. As NYE would say: Cry me a river.

quote: Weren't scientists elevated to the top of social heap during the socialist era? That's not the case in any Western country...

In both the Stalnist era and in Russia, intelligence is highly valued. In fact, in all of Europe intelligence is highly valued, which I can clearly see is NOT the case in America

	20-02-2003 12:36									#37
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"Now your whining to me simply because you played into my troll. Boo hoo. As NYE would say: Cry me a river."

Sorry, for it be a sucsessful troll, you have to get me angry or upset somehow. You made me question your intelligence and insult you. But hey, if making people think you are dumb is the goal of your posting, then to the master troll.

	20-02-2003 12:49									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "Now your whining to me simply because you played into my troll. Boo hoo. As NYE would say: Cry me a river." Sorry, for it be a sucsessful troll, you have to get me angry or upset somehow. You made me question your intelligence and insult you.

Your post speaks for itself, Shi!!!

	20-02-2003 13:14									#39
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You have run out of things to say and as a result can only reply with a flurry of 's and 's. You are out of things to say. Thank you Tassadar, your surrender was not graceful but it was total. Fortunately however I am not like loinburger who will judge you as a result of your social misconduct. I will be understanding of your nerdiness and realize you just don't know any better.

	20-02-2003 13:33									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Thank you Tassadar, your surrender was not graceful but it was total.

How can you respond to "You need to make me angry. I insulted you"?

It is a very stupid comment because a troll is not only designed to make people angry (Though I must add, angry people usually INSULT people ) but for people to respond. And your responding.

However, if I'm a bit too much more powerful than you when it comes to debating and you want me to "surrender", I will. I did it with Fez when he wanted me to surrender.

I suppose I'm just a merciful communist, aren't I?

quote: I will be understanding of your nerdiness and realize you just don't know any better.

"You need to make me angry!!!! You havent cause all I did was INSULT YOU!!!"

"Um....Do I need to comment to that?"

"Aha. You surrendered! It was a total surrender!!!"

"Um.....No, I simply replied to your comment. Something you never did for all of MY comment."

"Well....well....YOUR A NERD!"



Shi.....Please dont act like some high-school jock, OK? It makes you look INCREDIBLY stupid

	20-02-2003 13:47									#41
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Very interesting article. I agree with most of it. From grades 6 to 10 (middle school and public high school) I was a nerd/introvert. But rather than bring at the bottom of the social ladder, I was comeletely outside of it. Unlike the author, I literally had no real conception of the game of popularity or status. I simply ignored it and went along with my school work. Since I never bothered anybody and our schools were fairly civilized places, no one ever bothered me either.

Several quotes from the article are especially good IMO:

quote: So if intelligence in itself is not a factor in popularity, why are smart kids so consistently unpopular? The answer, I think, is that they don't really want to be popular.

This basically sums up his point. Popularity is difficult, and it involves both a desire to be popular and a great deal of conscious or unconscious effort. But there are some people have an innate ability for it, and they donīt realize how difficult it is. Just like I have an innate ability for math, and I never understood how other people could find it difficult.

It is a classic psychological study of motivation: What drives a person? The people whose actions are driven and determined by other people are more likely to be social animals. My definition of "nerd" has always been: "Someone with absolutely no desire to be popular" or alternatively "Someone who is not motivated by other people." Such a person can be either smart or stupid, but will either actively or passively be excluded from the social game.

quote: I think the important thing about the real world is not that it's populated by adults, but that it's very large, and the things you do have real effects. That's what school, prison, and ladies-who-lunch all lack. The inhabitants of all those worlds are trapped in little bubbles where nothing they do can have more than a local effect. Naturally these societies degenerate into savagery. They have no function for their form to follow. When the things you do have real effects, it's no longer enough just to be pleasing. It starts to be important to get the right answers, and that's where nerds show to advantage. Bill Gates will of course come to mind. Though notoriously lacking in social skills, he gets the right answers, at least as measured in revenue.

This is a very insightful observation. In the lack of a real goal and an objective performance standard, peopleīs goals and standards will be seriously warped, leading to the situations he describes.

quote: But in at least some cases the reason the nerds don't fit in actually is that everyone else is crazy. I remember sitting in the audience at a "pep rally" at my high school, watching as the cheerleaders threw an effigy of an opposing player into the audience to be torn to pieces. I felt like an explorer witnessing some bizarre tribal ritual.

This is so true. Pep rallies are one of the most obnoxious, puerile, and savage things I have ever experienced. Blatant tribalism. What astounds me is that the teachers and administrators actually encourage it. I never could believe that they would pull us out of school work and cancel classes in order to try to whip the school into an emotional frenzy. It was practically Orwellinan.

However, I think he goes too far in his condemnation of suburbia and the school system. I donīt think that it is as cynical as he says; the people who run schools usually believe that they are actually teaching kids and not just imprisoning them.

He is absolutely correct in saying that the concept of adolescence is an entirely modern invention. All the negative effects, the conditions and neuroses, associated with the teenage years are due to the structure of our modern society.

quote: Freaks and nerds were allies, and there was a good deal of overlap between them. Freaks were on the whole smarter than other kids, though never studying, or at least never appearing to, was an important tribal value. I was more in the nerd camp, but I was friends with a lot of freaks.

This is so true. Some of the smartest people I know are "freaks.

quote: family is the important thing. If school is pointless, so what? It's only school. If the other students don't think much of you, so what? What matters is what your family thinks of you."

Absolutely. Good families are essential, and I had a great one. My parents did a lot to save me from the mind-numbing effects of adolescence.

quote: But I don't think money is the reason the better schools are better; I think it's that the richer communities respect learning more. If you had given my high school twice as much money, it wouldn't have changed a thing. It was not because books were too expensive that they worshipped football.

Culture is indeed far more important than wealth. Thatīs why government cash will never be enough to improve schools.

	20-02-2003 13:56									#42
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"It is a very stupid comment because a troll is not only designed to make people angry (Though I must add, angry people usually INSULT people ) but for people to respond. And your responding. "



It's funny you say that, because later in your post:

"However, if I'm a bit too much more powerful than you when it comes to debating and you want me to "surrender", I will. I did it with Fez when he wanted me to surrender. "

A comparison to fez?

and

"Shi.....Please dont act like some high-school jock, OK? It makes you look INCREDIBLY stupid "

Oooh.... looks like you just insulted me. I guess by your own standards you just fell hook line and sinker for my counter-troll. You lose.

But because I am not a mean high-school jock, I won't kick you when you are down. This whole exchange has been very fun, but it is threadjacking the thread. It's getting very late, so better luck next time.

Have a good night's rest.

	20-02-2003 13:58									#43
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quote: Oooh.... looks like you just insulted me. I guess by your own standards you just fell hook line and sinker for my counter-troll. You lose.

I never said I wasn't hooked by your troll. I'm hooked by almost everyones trolls, I freely admit it. I'm a very easy person to troll, just as you are

Stalemate, I suppose

quote: Have a good night's rest.

I wish I could. I'll explain in a new thread.

	20-02-2003 14:02									#44
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To try to get this back on track:

"
This is a very insightful observation. In the lack of a real goal and an objective performance standard, peopleīs goals and standards will be seriously warped, leading to the situations he describes."

As I said maybe, but then how do you account for bullying in the workplace? It made someone kill themselves awhile back IIRC.

"What astounds me is that the teachers and administrators actually encourage it. "

It goes further than that. At Columbine for instance, it was reported some teachers actually supported the jocks making fun of outsiders. I think the same thing happens occasionaly in Japan where conformity is a strong part of the culture. But as for the pep rallies you mention, it is right you have to wonder what priorites are seen when they cancel classes to stage a pep rally.

	20-02-2003 14:40									#45
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quote: Stop copying threads from the Straight Dope Message Board, would you, Stefanie?

If they're interesting threads then what's so bad about it, Rump Ranger?

	20-02-2003 14:51									#46
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Rump Ranger...

	20-02-2003 17:28									#47
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Bullying can happen in any situation. There is a difference between bullying and an entire atmosphere based around popularity and intrigue.

Most of the egregious workplace bullying and office politics seem to take place in middle to upper management, where output is hard to measure, objectives are ill-defined, and promotion is based on how much the boss like people rather than how technically proficiant they are.

	21-02-2003 01:20									#48
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I've mentioned this before. But I was never bullyed in high school. I was never physically bullied in middle school. Although interestingly I was verbally abused by other "smart" kids. I guess because I was a freak they thought I shouldn't be in the advanced classes. But this only happened in the one suburb school I went to in the 9th grade. Once I went to an inner city high school, this never happened. So maybe it is a suburb thing.

I never had a physical bully since I was in elementary school. But that didn't last long. I never stood up to the bully himself. But I did stand up to some other kid my size who was making fun of me. I hit him hard and knocked the wind out of him. I never had any trouble with bullies after that.

	21-02-2003 01:36									#49
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I used to get the crap kicked out of me on about a monthly basis. We're not talking name-calling here, we're talking the real-deal, 3-on-1 physical beating.

I think it's turned me into an evil old sod.