20-02-2003 05:04									#1
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I'm not talking about luxery or strategic. We know how important they are.

But are cows better than wheat. Does anyone go for whales? Or do they prefer to utilize more lands squares?

Discuss.

	20-02-2003 05:34									#2
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Cows, definitely cows. Whales when making a port city are nice, but nothing tops cows on grassland. Bonus food and production on Civs best terrain.

	20-02-2003 06:34									#3
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2 cows, a river and a granary and the game is over. You will outrex anyone.

	20-02-2003 07:13									#4
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Unless everyone has cows and rivers that is!

(Cough *Strat PBEM 4* Cough)

	20-02-2003 07:15									#5
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A patch of cows can certainly make a powerhouse of a city, that's for sure. I still try to settle a whale city once in a while to harken back to the good ol' days of Civ II when a whale city, or *gasp*, a two whale city was a blessing to behold.

And a wheat flood-plain tile spells settler-farm under any cercumstances.

	20-02-2003 07:59									#6
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that explains why I do that. I'm still stuck in my old civ2 sytles. I have a hard time breaking them. Out of habit I always go for whales.

I'm trying to decide if I should build a city on the coast to utilize whales. Is it worth it? Because the other ocean tiles are worthless except for trade arrows. But you can get 2 food from them with a harbour.

	20-02-2003 08:39									#7
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By the numbers, Cows are clearly the best Bonus resource (+1 Food, +1 Shield). When they appear on Grassland it gets even better, as you get 5 Food from that tile when irrigated upon breaking out of Despotism. That's growth in 2 turns for city size < 6, with an extra Shield to boot.

I personally really like Game, since once you chop the Forest, you again get a great bonus Food tile.

Whales are nice, but I never go out of my way to get them (yep, definitely different from Civ2!).


Dominae

	20-02-2003 09:14									#8
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Unless everyone has cows and rivers that is! (Cough *Strat PBEM 4* Cough)

Are you complaining??
I hope nobody's picking on you Alex.

Not everyone can get such a great start. (Cough *Strat PBEM 2* Cough)


No hard feelings.

	20-02-2003 09:17									#9
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Alexman should not complain, as his Cow-fortune appeared in twos.


Dominae

	20-02-2003 09:44									#10
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I try to boost up the "weaker" players.

Let me apologize to the Russ, Dom, and Ralph for accidentally giving Alex and extra cow.

	20-02-2003 09:53									#11
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I've had three-cow cities on rare occasion. Great food and production both, although if fresh water is available, irrigating two of the cows and handing one off to a neighboring city would be even better.

I generally regard it as important to make good use of as many tiles as practical, including sea. With a harbor in a representative government, sea gives two food and two gold, and while that's hardly spactacular, it's not to be scoffed at either. Every little bit of commerce helps, even when whales aren't available. (Although at least some sea tiles are usually left in the "expand into when the city grows past size 12" category.)

Wheat and game are actually the same, give or take a forest. Plant a forest on wheat and you get the same as game, or chop game and you get the same as wheat. But both are one production worse than cattle.

Nathan

	20-02-2003 10:01									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm trying to decide if I should build a city on the coast to utilize whales. Is it worth it?

Why is this an either/or proposition? In most games you need at least one port anyway. Might as well build it near a whale if one's available.
Call me Ishmael.

	20-02-2003 10:02									#13
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Ah, but Game is better, as it comes with a ten-Shield credit.


Dominae

	20-02-2003 10:09									#14
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A ten-shield credit that it costs either five or ten worker turns, depending on whether you're industrious or not, to cash in. Personally, I'd rather get the growth advantage without having to wait those extra turns, at least if there are grasslands with shield around for the extra population provided by the faster growth to use.

Nathan

	20-02-2003 10:25									#15
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Hm, good point. Still 2F/2S is pretty good for a start, even if it means normal growth. You get 2S of waste on a Warrior, but that can be avoided sometimes.

Plus, most importantly, I hate the look of the Mine graphic over a Wheat tile. Ugh.


Dominae

	20-02-2003 10:28									#16
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quote: Plus, most importantly, I hate the look of the Mine graphic over a Wheat tile.

Running an empire on asthetics... now that would be a fun challenge game!

	20-02-2003 10:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BRC I try to boost up the "weaker" players. Let me apologize to the Russ, Dom, and Ralph for accidentally giving Alex and extra cow.

Mistakes are human, and very much appreciated!

But seriously, in terms of food, two cows on plains are equivalent to one cow on grassland. Of course, the two plains cows get extra shields, but the grassland cow is improved and ready to use twice as fast, and taken advantage with just a size-1 city.

	20-02-2003 10:35									#18
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quote: Originally posted by alexman But seriously, in terms of food, two cows on plains are equivalent to one cow on grassland. Of course, the two plains cows get extra shields, but the grassland cow is improved and ready to use twice as fast, and taken advantage with just a size-1 city.

Trying to set yourself up as the victim, are ya!??!

	20-02-2003 10:51									#19
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COWS, COWS, COWS!! Game also are good to start with. As for whales...I always have the bad luck never to have any!

	20-02-2003 10:54									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Plus, most importantly, I hate the look of the Mine graphic over a Wheat tile. Ugh. Dominae

I hate the look of mines on a plain/grassland period! It's really a shame that Firaxis made Forests practically worthless. Definitely not an "ecological" game.

And jungles are even more useless...

	20-02-2003 12:01									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Trying to set yourself up as the victim, are ya!??!

Dom, you have the Zulus. Alexman should be the victim.

	20-02-2003 12:20									#22
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Resources I find great:

Cows - this goes without saying. And all there is to be said is already said.

Wheat&flood plains - just wish for undiseased times. A city with two of these and a couple of hills = Settler powerhouse.

Gold - Especially if I can put the city on top of it. I lose the late-game mining bonus, but I gain the +3 (or +4) commerce bonus without working the golden hill. Wonderful in the early game.

Fish - makes the coastal cities more and more powerful. A good to have in the coastal-city-wonder-builder.

	20-02-2003 12:21									#23
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About the whale in civ2 (I've never played)

What does whale-bonus do in Civ2?

	20-02-2003 13:34									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I hate the look of mines on a plain/grassland period! It's really a shame that Firaxis made Forests practically worthless. Definitely not an "ecological" game.

And, now that I think about it, not particularly realistic. Granted, significant amounts of forest need to be chopped for farmland in the real world. But if we got rid of practically all of it as usually seems to happen in Civ 3 games, where would we get lumber to build houses, etc. with? (Oh, maybe the houses use metal instead of wood thanks to all those mines. )

	20-02-2003 13:36									#25
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The problem with fish is that unless you really luck out and get them in fresh water, you have to get into a non-despotic government and/or build a harbor to get any extra food out of them. That keeps them from being all that big a help in the early game.

	20-02-2003 13:57									#26
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quote: Originally posted by BRC I hope nobody's picking on you Alex.

Nah, the black plague is picking on me instead. But pink people love impi roast .

Master Zen: The Avatar as avatar? Nice pick! (outing myself as absolute Ultima VII fan).

Dissident: Cattle on grassland, hands down. Nothing beats 2 cattles on grass (one mined, one irrigated) or 3 cattles on plains (all irrigated).

	20-02-2003 14:37									#27
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About master zen's avatar: I thought I've seen that somewhere!

HEY! CIV2-PLAYERS!!!! What's the bonus of Whales in civ2?

	20-02-2003 14:47									#28
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IIRC they give a total of 2 food, 2 shields and 3 commerce (or were it only 2?), which is of course priceless in the early game. I don't remember very sharp, what of this is tile specific and what bonus. After all I haven't played any serious Civ2 for 3 or 4 years now.

	20-02-2003 14:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph After all I haven't played any serious Civ2 for 3 or 4 years now.

What were you playing between Civ 2 and Civ 3, if you don't mind my asking?

	20-02-2003 15:08									#30
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Whales are a what they are described as, a bonus resource. Nice but that's all. If I can position a coastal city to take advantage of them I will but not to compromise city position.

The only time I will go for a whale is if placing a coastal city in a tundra area. The extra food with a harbour allows working an extra forested tundra tile and can turn a poor city into a mediocre one. It does take quite some time to develop such a city though.