20-02-2003 06:08									#1
	No Final War? Inflate your Upload Space

This does not make sense for several reasons. One of them being that the Ithys and Saurians cannot exist together peacefully. The Saurians would not bow to an Ithy dominated Senate, or vice versa. Another reason this does not make sense is because the Harvesters cannot exist with anyone peacefully, not even themselves. I doubt that the Senate would allow the Harvesters to continue to exist regardless of any other concerns.

I think that there should be some sort of dividing lines in the Senate about who accepts the ruling and who doesn`t based on outside alliances and the relations table as Pedxing laid out on IGMOO..

Edit: Trying to clean up my grammer

Last edited by RolandtheMad on 20-02-2003 at 06:26

	20-02-2003 06:19									#2
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I completely agree.

Someone should make a post about it on the official forums if there isn't already one there.

	20-02-2003 06:20									#3
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There have been many petitions but little discussion on IGMOO.

	20-02-2003 09:58									#4
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I'm sure this could be added to a patch/mod. No big whoop.

	20-02-2003 10:31									#5
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just turn off the victory condition. in civ3 i turned off the un victory after the first time i won via it. Its just too sudden of a victory for my taste.

At the least, I think that non-senate members would ignore the resolution. After all, they didn't get to vote, why would they obey?

	20-02-2003 10:54									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo At the least, I think that non-senate members would ignore the resolution. After all, they didn't get to vote, why would they obey?

The logic behind that design decision (if it wasn't an oversight) was most likely "If someone got powerful enough to achieve a Senate victory, they're powerful enough (especially with Senate backing) to crush anyone who opposes the ruling. The non-Senate races will see this writing on the wall and give up." ... this is likely true, but I'd like a chance to make the computer prove it

edit- and, of course, I have that chance by turning off the victory condition and seeing what happens when the computer gets elected President... I'm not sure if the "Final War" situation will be the same, though.

	20-02-2003 11:12									#7
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Well, as I said over at IGMOO - if it works like final war did in Moo2, all the races in the senate would give all their tech to each other and gang up on you.

That includes the New Orions, who have every tech in the game.

Yeah, THAT will be a fair game.

	20-02-2003 11:32									#8
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quote: Originally posted by kalbear That includes the New Orions, who have every tech in the game.

But do they? All the screenies I've seen with their endgame stats show tech levels in the 25ish range, when 50 is the max (you can go beyond that too, I think, but there's little point).

quote: Yeah, THAT will be a fair game.

was I asking for a "fair game" in that situation? Oh heck no, I expect the computer to pull out every stop and completely unify against me (even to the point of Saurians and Ich-those fishy things laying down together in peace while concentrating on my destruction)... and I expect, after I get good enough, that I will still win

	20-02-2003 11:53									#9
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quote: The logic behind that design decision (if it wasn't an oversight) was most likely "If someone got powerful enough to achieve a Senate victory, they're powerful enough (especially with Senate backing) to crush anyone who opposes the ruling. The non-Senate races will see this writing on the wall and give up." ... this is likely true, but I'd like a chance to make the computer prove it

But lets say that I have the biggest, most powerful empire in the game. But I'm not in the senate. Then the senate members are only competing with eachother for the victory. Why the heck would I obey the ruling?

Anyway, its not a terribly big deal. But it would be a nice thing to see in a patch.

	20-02-2003 18:33									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo But lets say that I have the biggest, most powerful empire in the game. But I'm not in the senate. Then the senate members are only competing with eachother for the victory. Why the heck would I obey the ruling?

I agree. As it stands, you would have to use some of that massive force to smash up the senate guys enough that they don't just get elected... or try to get into the senate.

quote: Anyway, its not a terribly big deal. But it would be a nice thing to see in a patch.

Also agreed.

	20-02-2003 20:49									#11
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For theer NOT to be the option of a total war is kinda silly. If i'm not in the senate, what the hell do i care if someone wins the senate presidency? If they wanna impose their will on me - theyre gonna have to force me!

So - I would like to see:

(1) The option for a final war to be added in a patch. It *is* an entirely different endgame to just turning off diplomatic victory and going for sole survivor. In sole survivor you can bide your time, and pick off the other races one by one. In a final war there is no more diplomatic pussyfooting around - its fighting tooth, nail and tentacle for survival.

(2) The New Orions get the hump when they are voted out - and either sublime (taking all their tech with them), pack up and leave for pastures new (again, taking all of their tech), or declare total war on the new senate (hehe, okay maybe that last one would be a bit nasty). Either way - make it so that the new senate leaders dont get easy access to NO tech, so that a final war wont be a one-sided massacre.

(3) If you defy the senate and thus invoke final war - i'd like it so that you ARENT necessarily the only voice of dissent. How about a few other AI races join you in a desparate alliance against the evil senate? Possibly some of the other outer races, and maybe one or two of the senate members who voted against the winners of the presidency. Then you would have the potential for half of the galaxy against the other half in one massive orgy of death.

(4) Have it so that even if you *win* the presidency yourself - the same thing described in (3) can happen to you: i.e. you win the presidency - and then have to lead the senate to clear out the rebellious scum who have allied against your new galactic order.

[sarcasm]
Nahh.... now i think about it - that stuff doesnt sound like much fun at all...
[/sarcasm]

Last edited by Daveybaby on 20-02-2003 at 20:54

	20-02-2003 22:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Daveybaby It *is* an entirely different endgame to just turning off diplomatic victory and going for sole survivor. In sole survivor you can bide your time, and pick off the other races one by one. In a final war there is no more diplomatic pussyfooting around - its fighting tooth, nail and tentacle for survival.

That is very true. Turning off a senate win means there is no pressure on you to strike which is entirely different from defying the council.

It would be a nice option to see in a patch. There's no reason why the New Orions would actively participate in the war. Having just been voted out of control they could sit back and expect the anti-NO council to be weakened by the war and leave them nicely placed to step back in at a later date if the council gets its butt kicked...

	20-02-2003 23:16									#13
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@ Daveybaby: Your ideas would make for an awesome end-game experience.

	21-02-2003 05:17									#14
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What good is a Senate Victory if you have have a final war?

"Congrats, you win... but not really."

The Senate Victory is a way to win the game in a (generally) non-military fashion and a final war would just turn it into something where all that diplomacy is wasted and you still have to win by military.

Now, the best of both worlds would be of course to have the option to turn on or off a final war in the set up. That way if you really wanted to, you could play out the game after a Senate Victory and take on the galaxy, so to speak.

Put in coalition victories while you're at it.

edit: sp

Last edited by viciouscycle on 21-02-2003 at 10:11

	21-02-2003 07:29									#15
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I seem to remember at least one MOO2 game where I had a big empire and generally started being mean to everyone so the other empires elected a president and I ended up winning the game against the Senate.

	21-02-2003 17:47									#16
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quote: Originally posted by viciouscycle What good is a Senate Victory if you have have a final war? "Congrats, you win... but not really." The Senate Victory is a way to win the game in a (generally) non-military fashion and a final war would just turn it into something where all that diplomacy is wasted and you still have to win by military. Now, the best of both worlds would be of course to have the option to turn on or off a final war in the set up.

As is currently being so depressingly demonstrated in the world... political power means very little without the might to back it up. However, i think that you as a player would still be able to concentrate on a purely diplomatic approach. After you win the presidency you will get to use the guns of everyone who voted for you.

The potential of a massive opposition to the senate (from all of the outer rim races) *should* be a consideration when going for a senate win. Maybe it would encourage the senate to be more willing to accept new members from outside the core (i havent read much about that happening in any AARs yet) in order to get a larger base of approval.

But anyway - yeah, definitely it should be an option, not mandatory.

quote: Originally posted by viciouscycle That way if you really wanted to, you could play out the game after a Senate Victory and take on the galaxy, so to speak.

You can already do that, by turning off the Senate victory condition. You can still become president, but the game won't end. Hmmmm.... anyone out there know what happens in this situation? Do you get any special techs or diplomatic powers? Can you be voted out again?

quote: Originally posted by viciouscycle Put in coalition victories while you're at it.

Absolutely.

Heh, with MP coalition victories you'd *need* the final war option, otherwise your 'team' could all choose to be senate members in their custom race, and vote you into the presidency on the first turn!

	22-02-2003 00:37									#17
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Sorry Davey, you'd still need to build up to pass the NO.

	22-02-2003 01:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by rhofman Sorry Davey, you'd still need to build up to pass the NO.

True, but if 2+ players were working in concert the necessary build-up time would be less because they could combine their vote... this is the normal reward of really good diplomacy, but if the other player goes into the game with the sole intention of voting you in...

The main requirement is being the leader among the non-NOs, I think, as you have to be one of the top 2 to even be up for election.

	22-02-2003 01:42									#19
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Yes, any individual member of the "team" would have to make it to number 2 in the power rankings.