20-02-2003 06:35									#1
	ND_GoW Treaty. Get a bigger avatar today!

From Mav-Son:

quote: Dear Gentlemen, Please excuse, that the government of ND could not react earlier to your contract proposal, based on the Apolyton-Chat discussions of yesterday. My Gov. darekill and Vicegov. borc send You the best regards. As a legal advisor of the people of ND, represented by Governor darekill and Vicegovernor borc, it is a special honor for me, to response to your draft. Our proposed changes/additions and changes are written into the text. My remarks are concentrated on the end of the text. In addition I have to inform You, that the treaty, as soon as it is fixed and signed, has to be ratified by our parliament. Feel free, to send Your answer and comments to this proposal to me or to all participants of the Chatroommeeting. Yours mav_son Contract between Neu Demogyptia and the Glory of War. Both parties agree, that this treaty has to be handled confidentionally and is for eyes only. It is not allowed to talk about or to post any details in the public forum of Apolyton. As per the map titled Glory of War - Neu Demogyptica Territorial Agreement (territorymarked.jpg) which is attached to this document. 1. ND is to found the city here fore refered to as "Irongard". Once this city, the Iron in its city radius and the two empires of Neu Demogyptia and the Glory of War are all connected, then a trade of Iron from Neu Demogyptia to the Glory of War is to be made. In game, it will say that this trade will expire in 20 turns. Once this time expires, the deal will be continued. The trade will continue until the Emipre of Spain (the Roleplay team) is eliminated. Then Neu Demogyptia will gift the city referred to as Irongrad to the Glory of War. 2. The area of Lux Invicta shall be settled on the north coast by the Glory of War and on the East coast by Neu Demogyptia in order to prevent Vox Controli from settling on the Continent of Middle Bob. Again, upon the elimination on Spain, the cities in this area are all to be gifted to Glory of War. An adequate compensation for cities that will be giftet is subject to further negotiations. 3. Neu Demogyptica and the Glory of War will declare war on the Roleplay team on the same turn. This turn is not yet decided, but it must be agreed to by both teams; latest ....... (?) At least 10 swordsmen from Neu Demogyptica and 10 horsemen from the Glory of War are to be used in attacking Roleplay. This is an absolute minimum, and it is expected that teams will produce more than this. 4. a) Both teams agree to work together in technology research. Details will be worked out in a separate treaty. b) Limited trading will be allowed between both teams and Roleplay team. This will stay in effect until the simultaneous declaration of war on Roleplay. Every trade that either team makes with Roleplay must be agreed upon by both teams. 5. A Right of Passage will be agreed to by both teams. This will not be an in game agreement, but one that allows the transport of troops through one another's territory. Neu Demogyptia will leave Glory of War worker stacks unmolested inside the cultural border of Neu Demogyptia to facilitate the clearing of the vast southern jungle. 6. After the Roleplay team is defeated, the enitire continent will be scruitinized, and divided up by exactly 50%. This includes 50% of the tiles and 50% of the resources. 7. This contract can be denounced by none of both teams before Roleplay-Team is defeated and the changing of towns has been done. After fullfilling the changes of towns, the contract can be denounced observing a 30 turns-period of notice. Explanations: 1. Your proposed b) is not necessary. This situation will never occur. 2. As the building and support of new cities are very costfully, there must be a (later) discussion about some compensation 3. Maybe the latest possible year to start the invasion should be fixed. 4. As discussed, we should work together in tech. research. 7. Every treaty has its backdoor to leave.

	20-02-2003 07:23									#2
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quote: After fullfilling the changes of towns, the contract can be denounced observing a 30 turns-period of notice.

does the contract not end after the exchange of cities?

	20-02-2003 08:01									#3
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We should include a paragragh that requires them to continue to trade us iron, until we get Irongards cultural borders over it.
Depending on their cultural stregth (they are religious) this may take a while.

	20-02-2003 08:10									#4
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Well the treaty allows for ending the deal but doesn't require it at anytime. Won't our borders expand over the iron regardless of neu becasue it is in the city radius. If that is so this treaty is fine.
Aggie

	20-02-2003 09:18									#5
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I don't like them controlling all of the Iron, and then gracefully trading it to us... After the destruction of Spain, we would have very little leverage, if any, of obtaining or enforcing their end of the bargaining. They are in complete control of all resources that would be needed, as well as 1/2 the territory that is supposed to become ours later. We control nothing that they would want and couldn't take from us simply by controlling all the Iron.

But then, I am a paranoid person anyway, and tend not to trust anyone...

	20-02-2003 09:44									#6
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I agree with you Unortho...
But I believe the boys had a lengthy chat (2.5hours) on this issue.

ND made it clear, that they have a settler ready and they will settle Irongard, whether we like it or not.
I think they are as worried about us, as we are about them. By holding Irongard, it is the carrot to ensure we attack RP and uphold our part of the agreement.

I dislike allowing them to settle into Lux as well, but they are the ones who took it from Lux, and they have the force to back it up, so I feel we have little choice but to go along with the plan.

I do believe however, that GF has plans to get another backup source of iron.

Also, we will be upgrading units as soon as we can afford it, so there is little chance of they all of a sudden attacking and us having obsolete units.

Also... Am I right or wrong...The Iron is not in the immediate 9 tiles of Irongard. It is on the next tile ring. I thought this "ring" of tiles was open to cultural crush from another civ ?

Finally...
I dont like it, but I think we have no other choice but to accept to deal.
Essential to our plan, is securing another backup source of Iron from another civ, or by colony in the deep south.

	20-02-2003 10:04									#7
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If a tile is in the city radius it will automatically go to that civ, unles another civ puts a city nearby. Thus if the iron is in the city radius or irongrad it will be our once we have built a temple and get 10 culture, unless nd builds a city that either has it in the 1st ring or builds a city that has it in the 2nd ring but with higher culture.
Aggie

	20-02-2003 18:42									#8
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Some more suggestions...

Point 1
"The trade will continue until the Emipre of Spain (the Roleplay team) is eliminated."
I suggest we include this "or if a mutual agreement is made to end the war early. Or it becomes unviable to continue the war (ie chasing a galley)

This will mean they have to gift us Irongard if RP manages to pull a rabbit out of a hat and defeats both of us...or possibly gets a settler off onto a galley. Technically they are not destroyed so ND will not have to gift us the city.

"An adequate compensation for cities that will be giftet is subject to further negotiations."
This is too open ended. Decide on a price now or we may end up with very different valuation of how much cities cost.
Work out compensation now ($/settler, $/worker, $/improvement) and agree to it.
I suggest we include.."valuations of cities are to be finalised before war is declared. Non-agreement on a valuation method can allow either team to void this contract"
This will ensure that we both work hard to come to an agreement now, and it not left untill after the war.

"This turn is not yet decided, but it must be agreed
to by both teams; latest ....... (?)"
I agree with this...can we work out how long before we can produce our quota of horsemen ? The speed at which tech is being researched, we could end up fighting with UU's


Finally... this should not be included in the contract...but within our warplans, can we get ND scout/s to to move ahead of our horsemen. We have to travel further than ND, and we dont want to be caught out.

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 20-02-2003 at 18:47

	20-02-2003 18:50									#9
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I agree with HE's additions, but we need to be clear that we will only pay for the improvements WE recieve. Them building temples doesn't help us any since cultural buildings can't be transferred. (well, I'm not sure about gifting cultural buildings, but I think that still applies)

	20-02-2003 19:22									#10
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This puts some clarification/stuff that we want in the contract.

_____________________________

Contract between Neu Demogyptia and the Glory of War.

Both parties agree that this treaty has to be handled confidentionally and is for our eyes only. Neither party is allowed to talk about this or to post any details about this in the public forum of Apolyton.

As per the map titled Glory of War - Neu Demogyptica Territorial Agreement (territorymarked.jpg) which is attached to this document.

1. ND is to found the city here fore refered to as "Irongard". Once this city, the iron in its city radius and the two empires of Neu Demogyptia and the Glory of War are all connected, then a trade of Iron from Neu Demogyptia to the Glory of War is to be made. In game, it will say that this trade will expire in 20 turns. Once this time expires, the deal will be continued. The trade will continue either until the Emipre of Spain (the Roleplay team) is eliminated, or if a mutual agreement is made to end the war early. Then Neu Demogyptia will gift the city referred to as Irongard to the Glory of War.

2. The area of Lux Invicta shall be settled on the north coast by the Glory of War and on the East coast by Neu Demogyptia in order to prevent Vox Controli from settling on the Continent of Bob. Again, upon the elimination of Spain, the cities in this area are all to be gifted to Glory of War. An adequate compensation for cities that will be giftet is subject to further negotiations. Valuations of cities are to be finalised before war is declared on Roleplay. Non-agreement on a valuation method will allow either team to void this contract.

3. Neu Demogyptica and the Glory of War will declare war on the Roleplay team on the same turn. This turn is not yet decided, but it must be agreed to by both teams at least 20 turns beforehand or later if mutually agreed upon. At least 10 swordsmen from Neu Demogyptica and 10 horsemen from the Glory of War are to be used in attacking Roleplay. This is an absolute minimum, and it is expected that teams will produce more than this.

4. a) Both teams agree to work together in technology research. Details will be worked out in a separate treaty.
b) Limited trading will be allowed between both teams and Roleplay team. This will stay in effect until the simultaneous declaration of war on Roleplay. Every trade that either team makes with Roleplay must be agreed upon by both teams.

5. A Right of Passage will be agreed to by both teams. This will not be an in game agreement, but one that allows the transport of troops through one another's territory. Neu Demogyptia will leave Glory of War worker stacks unmolested inside the cultural border of Neu Demogyptia to facilitate the clearing of the vast southern jungle.

6. After the Roleplay team is defeated, the enitire continent will be scruitinized, and divided up by exactly 50%. This includes 50% of the tiles and 50% of the resources.

7. This contract cannot be denounced by either team before the Roleplay-Team is defeated and the changing of towns has been done. After fullfilling the changes of towns, the contract can be denounced observing a 30 turns-period of notice.

8. There will be a nonagression treaty in place between th Glory of War and Neu Demogyptia for the duration of this agreement.

Reasons:

1. added wording letting us mutually agree to stop war - since we both agree, why would we continue war?

2. This will ensure that we both work hard to come to an agreement now, and it not left untill after the war.

3. Optimally, we will get our unique units before the war with Roleplay. As we do not know the date that we will get them, we cannot commit to a date this early on.

7. just a question - does the treaty not end after the change of cities and the defeat of Roleplay?

8. Just in case it is not understood by the other points.

Last edited by Panzer32 on 22-02-2003 at 19:14

	20-02-2003 20:46									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Well the treaty allows for ending the deal but doesn't require it at anytime. Won't our borders expand over the iron regardless of neu becasue it is in the city radius. If that is so this treaty is fine. Aggie

Yes, it will and the Ironguard will not grow very fast due to the terrain.

Panzer, could you bold the changes you made so we can see where the differences are?

	21-02-2003 00:10									#12
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Sorry for my lack of participating in this discussion. I was at work for an extra 6 hours today. I have been up since 6 am on Wednesday and its 1:15 pm on Thursday. I'm pooped. I'm going to bed. I am sure you all this well in hand.

As for them not following through with this deal, I think that we will have a larger military by the end of the RP war. We will have more productive cities then they due to the Jungle. They will have no choice but to give us what we want.

anyway... I'll go vote in the poll now then

	21-02-2003 01:30									#13
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The treaty plus amendments sound good. Since there may not be an alternative them controlling the Iron, I suggest we send out galleys to secure trade routes.

	21-02-2003 01:40									#14
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Bolded ammendments, as GF suggested.

Anything else that needs changing before we ship it off to ND?

	21-02-2003 02:59									#15
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Are we waiting for our UU's ? Or are we using Horsemen & Swords ?

30 turns is a long wait.

I would suggest that if we are still unable to calculate a time when we will be ready. Then change it back to "a mutually agreed time"

And just send a memo to ND that we are still working up plans on when / how to attack, and we will let them know our recommended invasion date soon.

But we would still like to set up a agreement now.

If the war chat with ND included them talking about using swords, then I think they would rather go to war very soon. And well before they get their UU.

Regs

	21-02-2003 03:29									#16
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Again, I agree with HE.

Sooner is better than later for us as well, I would say. I do not think it will take Roleplay long to figure something is up especially if there is a trade embargo or even limited trading.

Do we know how long it will take to build 10 horse AND the Road?

	21-02-2003 04:22									#17
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Panzer... Within your commentry, include an example of when we may mutual agree not to wipe our RP.


1. added wording letting us mutually agree to stop war - since we both agree, why would we continue war? An example of this is if RP gets a settler onto a galley, and it becomes wasteful to try and chase them down.

	21-02-2003 08:08									#18
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I think a later attack date is better, because we have nonagression pacts with Roleplay for a while that bars us from going right to war with them. Since we can't attack them right now, it is better to wait for our UUs. Also, this treaty has been written with attacking later in mind; therefore if we were to attack earlier, we would have to redo the wording.

	21-02-2003 08:44									#19
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I would rather an early attack without UU's so we can get a later golden age...(And not be at war during it)

But I still think a 30 turn warning is way too much.

- I am at work now ...will have a think at home later.
Send it as it is..and see what ND's comments are ?

Or insert "?????" and ask ND's opinion.

	21-02-2003 15:45									#20
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The reasons why I would rather an early war.
1. RP is Rexing. They are building their cities far away from their capital and have no real defense.
2. I would rather have a peaceful GA. ND & GOW can swap units and can have a one turn fake war, giving us both peaceful GA's
3. The longer we wait, the more cities ND will settle in LuxLand, and the more expensive it will be us to buy those cities back.

War should begin on 1025bc..the day our NAP expires.


And another concern...I really hate the idea of ND settling any additional areas around Lux.

They get the capital & the Irongard...OK they deserve them...but any city they build in Lux territory will eventually be gifted to us.

I just cant see ND gifting cities for gold.

ND should settle around themselves, and we warn Vox not to settle anywhere near Luxland. Tell Vox to settle further south if they insist, but the GOW will not accept any incursion so close to our high production cities.

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 21-02-2003 at 15:54

	21-02-2003 16:58									#21
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3 posts in a row

I will have that a personal avatar soon

While uploading the screenshots, I noticed the PowerGraph for Roleplay.
They have plenty of units....
And they had plenty of warriors spare to chasing Basher.

So...Are they going for a swordsman ?

	22-02-2003 01:45									#22
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If we were to go to war with RP in 1025bc, we would be alone. ND has a NAP with them longer than we do.

Should I send that deal to ND now?

	22-02-2003 01:48									#23
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Cut it down to 20 turns, minimum, I would say. We can certainly agree to LONGER, but that should give everyone enough time to be fully prepared, especially since we should be preparing now.

Will be kind of amuzing to see just how long ND is pre-occupied with Lux at this rate as well.

	22-02-2003 02:53									#24
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I switched the wording to 20 turns. If I can send this, I will send it tonight.

	22-02-2003 02:58									#25
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Can you write..."20 turns or if mutually agreed earlier"

That means we can demand a 20 turn warning, but still leaves the door open to an earlier attack if circumstances demand it and we both agree.

Regs

But lets send it ASAP...
We want to show ND we are keen to hammer out a deal

	22-02-2003 11:13									#26
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1) It think the agreement is fine as it now stands with the alterations.

2) We cannot fight RP for a little less than 30 turns because we agreed to a Non Agression treaty and we need to build up our city base.

3) We need to send the treaty back to ND within the next 12 hours to smooth over the Lux stupidity.

	24-02-2003 17:00									#27
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What's up with this? It was supposed to have been sent several days ago?

	24-02-2003 19:04									#28
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It sound to me like ND has it and is awaiting a vote.

	24-02-2003 19:29									#29
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal It sound to me like ND has it and is awaiting a vote.

ND hasn't received anything, Borc emailed me wanting to know what's up.

Right now, ND can attack us as we have NO NON AGRESSION treaty with them.

THEY WILL NOT AGREE TO TRADING WARRIORS UNTIL THE TREATY IS SIGNED and we have not sent any info back since they first sent us the treaty.

If I get no feedback within the next 3 hours I will send them the latest revised copy from this thread.

	25-02-2003 01:58									#30
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sorry... sent now.