20-02-2003 08:15									#1
	Imperial expansion: I've noticed... Increase Your PM Length

This is something I just noted to Togas based off of what I've noticed from playing one of our internal pbems. Call me dumb, but I never really overly concerned myself with this before being subjected to the anal level of strategizing induced by playing a multiplayer game:

quote: 825 B.C. I think I've discovered a key city expansion strategy that I'm only now noticing the clear supierority of because this is a pbem game and I'm anally watching this stuff rather than ignoring it like normal because I normally don't like to bother myself with that much micromanagement... I typically just play. Build your first cities in an array around your capital at 4-6 tiles distant each. In this game, I have 4-5 cites thus arrayed around my capital (though one is nearly an all-jungle city and not useful). This minimizes corruption and gives you a really great production base for propelling the rest of both REX and defense. Any cities beyond that core just build city walls and temples. You let the core cities build all of the military units, settlers, workers, etc. Trying to build cities further than that distance and hoping that they will become major production centers in the early game is a mistake. Corruption and waste, especially as a non-commercial civ (which I'm not used to - as I normally play commercial civs in SP), is simply debilitating. Using the industrious trait to concentrate on improving that core is especially effective. As China, I'm doing great with this (and 10-shield city walls are great for those border cities).

As Carthage, especially given the Numidian Mercenary, this initial city expansion pattern may prove especially effective. We can use our industrious workers to build roads between these intial core cities and build up their improvements. The capital can house hour Numidian Mercs for "rapid" response to threats in any of the other core cities and eventually move toward the border cities while the other cities are held down by warriors initially. The commercial trait will also boost trade under this scenario because of the specific way in which corruption is calculated under despotism with the commercial trait (I believe it affects the equivalent "optimal cities" number).

Having that initial hub of cities also allows for more efficient use of our industrious workers, as they won't be wasting so much time building roads halfway across the map in the early game and rather spending more time building mines to boost production and irrigation to make worker factories around our core cities.

Wonder what others think of this...

I figured it would be useful to post this here, where the strategy forum guys would tell me "well, DUH Arnelos ", but perhaps some other people like me will find it interesting

	20-02-2003 09:32									#2
	Remove this text

Well, DUH Arnelos!

Kidding aside, I agree with some parts of that quote, and disagree with others. Building a core around the capital is definitely a great idea. These cities suffer from minimal Corruption, and therefore can do anything quite well (almost as well as the capital). After this "core" pops up, a second "ring" should be begun immediately. Sites on this ring should be selected primarilty for their access to Bonus or Luxury resources (in comparison to the core, which should go up immediately regardless of all but the worst terrain). This is in contrast to always going for the best city-sites within view: although a nice Cows-on-River may be available, if it is too far away it is a better idea to settle closer to home than at a better site.

What I disagree with is 1) the city spacing, and 2) the lumping of cities into production "categories", and 3) stopping expansion.

1. Cities should go about 3 tiles apart on average. Terrain should dicate if this expends to 4 tiles or reduces to 2. Production in each city should be based on the merits of that city's potential.

2. There is no use in saying that all interior cities get improvements while all exterior ones produce units, it all depends on the situation. For instance, a settler-pump in the core should not build a Temple "just because it can". Or, a distant city may take a while to get started, but will definitely benefit from that Harbor somewhere down the line.

3. As a Commercial civ, we should be looking to expand as much as possible, within the bounds of safety. Being Commercial allows more cities to be productive, so we're shooting ourselves in the foot by limiting our expansion. Being Industrious just allows us to keep up in tile improvements while we expand like hell.


Dominae

	20-02-2003 09:52									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Dominae 1. Cities should go about 3 tiles apart on average. Terrain should dicate if this expends to 4 tiles or reduces to 2. Production in each city should be based on the merits of that city's potential.

I'm not a big fan of borging in Civ3. It would also (I would think) kill the main reason why the commercial trait is useful by building so many cities that the commercial trait's value diminishes overall.

I'm ALREADY not a fan of borging, so that just sinks it further.

That said, I admit I'm not an expert on that subject. Just what I've been able to gather from how Civ3 treats the corruption equation vs. the optimal city number and how the commercial trait changes that number. The cummulative impact seems to greatly discourage borging in comparison to Civ2, where it was a killer strategy.

quote: 2. There is no use in saying that all interior cities get improvements while all exterior ones produce units, it all depends on the situation. For instance, a settler-pump in the core should not build a Temple "just because it can". Or, a distant city may take a while to get started, but will definitely benefit from that Harbor somewhere down the line.

I was over-generalizing. I didn't really mean "ALL".

quote: 3. As a Commercial civ, we should be looking to expand as much as possible, within the bounds of safety. Being Commercial allows more cities to be productive, so we're shooting ourselves in the foot by limiting our expansion. Being Industrious just allows us to keep up in tile improvements while we expand like hell.

This is true, but it also means that borging minimizes the relative value of our trait because each of those cities which will have less corruption than normal will be pressed into less space and be producing less GROSS trade and shields, thus meaning the % increase in NET trade and shields is of minimal value compared to a more spread out city development plan where the NET increase would be a bonus to more GROSS income overall (since cities with more gross income would be the ones experiencing the NET boost).

Hope that makes sense

That's just my take on it, though.

	20-02-2003 10:00									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Arnelos, if you've got the time, check out this thread. It's Strat forum thread on exactly what we're discussing.

Let me say that I also do not enjoy "borging", but I've found 3-spacing (city-tile-tile-city) to be a nice compromise. Sometimes (rarely) I go down to 2, and I go up to 4 in the outer rims. This has nothing to do with the Commercial trait, though (the above link does, however).


Dominae

	20-02-2003 11:42									#5
	Got spare money?

Been talking to Dominae for a while in chat.

I'm more than willing to be convinced, but I need to see it with my own eyes Arguments from authority don't work for me, I need to see the data behind it

So I'll do the next best thing, I'll try some of the AU games on 3 spacing versus 4 or even 5 spacing to check out the difference, as well as some normal old Civ3 games.

If I like 2-3, I'll support it. I'm just a skeptic

EDIT:

I remember 2-3 being effective in Civ2, but that was mainly because that was before the days of Civ3's OCN corruption. That's the main reason why I'm highly skeptical of 2-3 spacing in the Civ3 system.... my instinct is that OCN corruption will make a 2-3 spacing pattern simply create debilitating corruption and waste for a sizable empire by the mid-game onward, meaning that claiming additional land where you can get needed luxuries and strategic resources can only be done by building horrendously corrupt cities because the already problematic distance corruption is being overlly exacerbated by far worse OCN corruption.

That said, I'm willing to TRY 2-3 spacing in Civ3 to see if the advantages in the early game make up for what I suspect to be the complete and utter corruption of all cities beyond a small landmass throughout the rest of the game... the corruption only worsening as you grow larger (and thus creating more and more cities that can potentially drain your coffers due to the additional improvements costing maintenance funds there than the whopping 1 trade they give you in revenue).

In a multiplayer PTW game, this will thankfully be minimized I realize because our available land will be SMALL. So I'm willing to check it out and see if I think that's workable.

I'm just biased against it because of OCN corruption and my emphasis on long-term rather than short-term strategies (which I admit are less suited to multiplayer games)

(that was way too long... oh well)

Last edited by Arnelos on 20-02-2003 at 11:51

	20-02-2003 11:46									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Arnelos, try not to forget to have fun with those games, too!


Dominae

	20-02-2003 11:50									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Post above has been edited (heavily).

	20-02-2003 13:29									#8
	Tonights Chat Log - part 1 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Some of the SPAM was edited out

quote: [22:33] [Trip> Dominae wants a spot as Minister of the Interior [22:33] [mrmitchell> use ctrl-home to go to top of page [22:33] [E_T> so do I [22:34] [Trip> so many people want spots as ministers [22:34] [Trip> how exciting! [22:34] [Trip> [22:35] [notyoueither> This is secure? [22:36] [notyoueither> hello? [22:36] [Trip> yes [22:36] [Trip> no one can get in without me or you :Þ [22:36] [notyoueither> I think i should post a screen shot in the Turn 1 thread. Yes? [22:36] [Trip> agreed [22:36] [TogasIDLE> agreed [22:36] [mrmitchell> I WANNA BE A MINISTER IF I GROW UP! [22:36] [E_T> and before one of you leave, make sure you op someone else [22:37] [notyoueither> ok. i will go figure out how to post it... [22:37] [E_T> IF?? you might not last that long... [22:37] [mrmitchell> OP me! please? [22:37] [Trip> :P [22:37] [Trip> no [22:37] [Trip> NYE: you can add attachments to all new threads [22:37] [Trip> so you'll have to start another new thread for the screenshot :Þ [22:39] [TogasIDLE> please invite "the_true_arnelos" to this thread [22:39] [notyoueither> posted [22:39] [TogasIDLE> this channel [22:39] [Trip> okay [22:39] [Trip> game, good [22:40] [Trip> no jungle [22:40] [Trip> better [22:40] [notyoueither> not attachments, Trip. img links. [22:40] [Trip> ahh, okay [22:40] [notyoueither> decsions faced. one tile from coast. move is a no brainer. is it? [22:40] [notyoueither> move in, or out? [22:40] [TogasIDLE> not a bad start, we could send our worker N to see what moving to the coast would be like [22:41] [E_T> From want Vondrack was telling Arnelos & I the other day, about the "security" of the Apolyton Upload, is that If the specific address is not used ourside the private forum, then you can't figure it ou... [22:41] [Trip> yes [22:41] [notyoueither> good plan [22:41] [Trip> moving the worker onto a hill tile would be best [22:41] [Trip> building now wouldn't be a bad idea [22:41] [mrmitchell> trip how do you make that |) thingy icon [22:41] [mrmitchell> instead of [22:41] [notyoueither> we would end up with many 1 food tiles in the radius [22:42] [Trip> :Þ [22:42] [Trip> a few trees [22:42] [Trip> excellent [22:42] [Trip> good for chopping... for our granary [22:43] [notyoueither> does anyone else think that looks like desert peaking out from under the blanket 8-9 from the settler? [22:43] [E_T> 12 when we post any screenshots, please have the grid on. It makes map making (from several shots) much easier [22:43] * The_True_Arnelos has joined #ISDG [22:43] [The_True_Arnelos> thank you [22:43] [notyoueither> ok. sorry [22:43] * TogasIDLE is now known as Togas [22:43] [The_True_Arnelos> so what's #ApolytonISDG for? [22:43] [notyoueither> cool, but how do we know you are the TRUE, true Arnelos? [22:44] [mrmitchell> Trip got fizzed over there not being any restrictions on joining [22:44] [Togas> NYE -- possible desert (or coastline) to the NE, N [22:44] [Trip> I see more forest to the north [22:44] [The_True_Arnelos> NYE - 'Arnelos' is still online due to a power fluctuation [22:44] [Trip> pretty sure... [22:44] [The_True_Arnelos> my machine rebooted and IRC hasn't noticed it yet ;p [22:44] [Trip> I wish I had my graphics theme :Þ [22:45] [notyoueither> good catch togas. that could be coast. [22:45] [Trip> is that jungle or forest to the SE of the settler? [22:45] [The_True_Arnelos> so anyways.... what's our situation look like? [22:45] [The_True_Arnelos> (others seem to have a screenshot... where?) [22:45] [notyoueither> Turn 1 thread Arnie [22:45] [Togas> figure we won't know for sure unless we send a worker. Is anyone violently opposed to worker scouting on the first move? [22:46] [The_True_Arnelos> thank you [22:46] [notyoueither> i think it is a must in this situation [22:46] [Trip> I vote we move it NW [22:46] [The_True_Arnelos> [----- generally opposed to worker scouting, but hasn't seen starting loc yet [22:46] [Trip> if there is more coast to the N, then we'll be able to see more from the NW tile [22:47] [notyoueither> NW won't reveal that mystery tile though. [22:47] [notyoueither> n or w would get more, i think [22:48] [Trip> I would say W then [22:48] [Trip> and build right where we are [22:48] [Trip> we can cut down 2 trees and use the game tile for production + food [22:48] [Togas> N or W reveals more tiles, just depends on if we're looking at coast or desert transition [22:48] * The_True_Arnelos is now known as Arnelos [22:48] [notyoueither> aren't we best to move inland or to the coast? [22:48] [Arnelos> there [22:48] [mrmitchell> I say we disband! [22:48] [mrmitchell> :P [22:48] [notyoueither> ok. disbanding... [22:48] [Trip> LoL [22:49] [Trip> I don't think we should move at all [22:49] [notyoueither> wait. that means we lose, right? is that a good plan? [22:49] [Trip> NYE: woops [22:49] [Arnelos> yeah - I see the screenshot now [22:49] [Togas> we have to wait for Vond before we can move worker? [22:50] [E_T> Coast I as, as we don't have any Fresh water for later growth, we atleast should get some extra trade from the water [22:50] [Trip> why should we? [22:50] [Trip> there's a reason we have 3 consuls... [22:50] [Togas> brb [22:50] [notyoueither> i think we should allow some time for people to have input in move or not move, settle or not settle, yes? [22:50] [notyoueither> what do you people think on the subject? [22:51] [Arnelos> up to the three of you, technically... and a decision by the consuls is made by 2 out of 3 or by consensus??? [22:51] [Trip> Move the worker W, build where we are [22:51] [notyoueither> both arnie [22:51] [Trip> none of the other teams had to delay the save [22:51] [notyoueither> most of the other teasm do not have 70 members. [22:51] [Arnelos> "both arnie" - that doesn't answer the question ;p [22:52] [E_T> I would like to be aboe to keep the Game in the first ring, as we won't be able to use it for atleast 11 turns if we move away from it [22:52] [notyoueither> consensus if possible, 2 out of 3 if that is not possible. [22:52] [Trip> NYE: some have almost that many [22:52] [Arnelos> LOL - I love the French leader name!!!! [22:52] [Trip> E_T: agreed [22:52] [Trip> [22:53] [E_T> NYE, do we have any infor on the F11 screen yet?? [22:53] [Trip> see what cities have been built [22:54] [Togas> back [22:54] [Trip> wb Togas [22:55] [E_T> Actually, If we are going to have the city built in a tile that has the Game in the first Ring, we should have the worker road the game first [22:55] [E_T> as that will be used from the start [22:55] [Togas> I believe our first decision is whether or not to move worker [22:55] [Togas> after that, we should discuss where to place city [22:56] [Trip> I think vice versa [22:56] [Trip> if we're going to build where we are, there's no NEED to scout yet [22:56] [Trip> and E_T is right [22:56] [Trip> we should use the worker for something useful right off the bat [22:56] [Arnelos> which way do people think we should move the settler if we DO move it? [22:56] [Arnelos> NE? [22:56] [Trip> if we DO want to move the settler, we use the worker for scouting [22:56] [Arnelos> N? [22:57] [Togas> I would move settler either NE or W after seeing if there's any benefit to doing so via worker movement. [22:57] [Arnelos> 4someone invite vondrack in here [22:57] [E_T> Unless we plan a long trek, we will either build here or move to the coast [22:57] [notyoueither> Good q ET. Three teams have settled. [22:57] [notyoueither> how do i invite? [22:58] * vondrack has joined #ISDG [22:58] [notyoueither> nm [22:58] [vondrack> hi! [22:58] [Trip> hello vondrack [22:58] [E_T> I would say to move to the forrest (next to the game) and build there. We get the Shieled Grass & the Game in the first Ring [22:58] [Trip> up early are we [22:58] [vondrack> morning, everybody [22:58] [vondrack> oh, yes [22:58] [notyoueither> hi vonD, again. [22:58] [Trip> E_T: we should save the forest for chopping [22:58] [BetaHound> hi v. [22:58] [vondrack> appalingly early [22:58] [vondrack> [22:58] [Arnelos> hey vond [22:58] [Trip> [22:58] [Arnelos> Vond - what's your timezone (GMT + ???) [22:58] [vondrack> GMT+1 [22:58] [Arnelos> ah [22:59] [E_T> We want the save..... [22:59] [Arnelos> geesh, 5 a.m. :shudders: [22:59] [Trip> hehe [22:59] [vondrack> usually, I am already sleeping at this time... [22:59] [Trip> 4Okay, what does everyone think we should do? [22:59] [BetaHound> What's wrong with the current spot? It has two 2-food tiles to work with. That's as good as its going to get. [22:59] [Trip> I agree with BH [22:59] [Trip> move worker S [22:59] [Trip> build where we are [22:59] [Arnelos> I think we found the city [22:59] [Arnelos> we have the game next to us and the hills to the north [22:59] [Arnelos> we're fine [22:59] [Trip> 3 for building city where we are [22:59] [Trip> Arnelos: agreed [22:59] [Togas> we can still build the city here after we worker-scout

There will be more in a bit

	20-02-2003 13:33									#9
	Tonights Chat Log - Part 2 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

darn character lenght limit.....

quote: [23:00] [Arnelos> Togas has a point [23:00] [E_T> If I get the job I'm looking to get, I'll be haveing to get up at about 4:30 AM, just to get there (1 hour drive...Yuck) [23:00] [Togas> moving worker will just let us know if this is the best option or not [23:00] [BetaHound> Which way does he go though? [23:00] [Arnelos> my guess is W [23:01] [Trip> the city site is fine [23:01] [Arnelos> meaning hte WORKER would go W [23:01] [Trip> we have 5 shields and 4 food while we pump out settlers [23:01] [Trip> there's no NEED for a better spot [23:01] [Trip> the one we have is fine [23:01] [BetaHound> We are talking about the worker [23:01] [Togas> West will reveal the most tiles. North 2nd most (assuming sea is typical). NW is a hybrid to check all spots. [23:01] [BetaHound> But ... [23:01] [Arnelos> hmmm... we should found the city first if we're convinced we have the best spot... because that will give us a better view to decide what to do with worker (changing my mind) [23:02] [BetaHound> if the current city spot is fine, move the worker to the tile we want improved first. [23:02] [Trip> The city site is plenty good for what we need it for: pumping out settlers and units early on [23:02] [Trip> there's no need to get picky [23:02] [BetaHound> I agree. time is more important. [23:02] [E_T> W If we don't use the worker to scout, we need him to start on roading teh game ASAP, for trade [23:03] [Trip> I've found that 1 turn has made the difference quite a lot in the PTW DG [23:03] [Arnelos> agreed with E_T (and that would be South, not West - west would be for exploring ;p ) [23:03] [Trip> I would hate to see Apolyton run into half as many 1-turn misses as Lux has [23:03] [Trip> E_T: agreed as well [23:03] [Togas> Agree as well IF we found on this site. [23:03] [notyoueither> hmmm. i could buy into settling where we are IF we keep thge disbandment of the original capitol as an open option. [23:03] [Arnelos> crap... 'poly boards are down [23:03] [Trip> woops [23:03] [BetaHound> ugh [23:04] [Trip> NYE: that's a possibility [23:04] [Trip> I insist that we build where we are [23:04] [Trip> there's no need to move! [23:04] [Trip> we have everything we need in this site for now [23:04] [BetaHound> yes - worry about the capitol issue down the road [23:05] [Arnelos> Trip - you and I are not Consuls ;p hee hee [23:05] [Arnelos> That said, I agree with Trip [23:05] [BetaHound> nor me [23:05] [Trip> Arnelos: don't flatter me :Þ [23:05] [Trip> even if there's some better tiles nearby, we'll get them in 10 turns [23:05] [Trip> the first 10 turns we'll just build a couple warriors [23:05] [BetaHound> Yes! [23:05] [mrmitchell> *couple _hundred_ warriors [23:06] [mrmitchell> [23:06] * E_T is now known as MI_Canidate_E_T [23:06] [Arnelos> lol [23:06] [Trip> only if you use the bug :Þ [23:06] [mrmitchell> what bug :P [23:06] * Trip is now known as Commandant_Trip [23:06] * Arnelos is now known as Citizen_Arnelos [23:06] * mrmitchell is now known as Minister-of-n00bs-candidate\mr [23:06] [Citizen_Arnelos> [23:06] [Commandant_Trip> the bug that allows you to build as many units as you want in one turn :Þ [23:06] [Minister-of-n00bs-candidate\mr> how??? how???? [23:06] [notyoueither> E_T, your opinion? [23:06] [Minister-of-n00bs-candidate\mr> ;p [23:07] [Minister-of-n00bs-candidate\mr> invite vonD [23:07] [Citizen_Arnelos> vond's already in here [23:07] [Minister-of-n00bs-candidate\mr> oops, he's already here :P [23:07] [Commandant_Trip> leave it to mitchell to find the longest name possible :\ [23:07] [vondrack> yeah, listening, guys, watch your words... [23:07] * Commandant_Trip is now known as CMD_Trip [23:07] [MI_Canidate_E_T> NYE, about the bug?? [23:08] [notyoueither> ok. i propose this. we move the worker W, then decide whether to settle or not. might be a cow or wheat right nearby. [23:08] * Minister-of-n00bs-candidate\mr is now known as minester-n00bs\mrmitchell [23:08] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> I'm assuming no one else wants the position [23:08] [Togas> My opinion: The game is the best tile we can see, and unless we discover something better via worker-scout, we should settle here. I propose we move worker W. [23:08] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> so I Proclaim myself Minister of n00bs! [23:08] [Togas> NYE -- crosspost [23:08] [CMD_Trip> 4Quickpoll! Should we use the worker to scout or not? 1 = yes, 2 = no [23:08] [notyoueither> ET, about settlement sites. [23:08] [CMD_Trip> [23:08] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> the founding of a n00b party is immeninnt [23:08] [MI_Canidate_E_T> ah [23:08] [BetaHound> 2 [23:08] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> I'm not informed [23:08] [CMD_Trip> 2 [23:08] [Togas> Trip -- why don't you ease off a bit and let the leaders do the polls. [23:08] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> so I'm tempted to vote 1.5 [23:09] [Citizen_Arnelos> Togas - I don't understand.... you think we should found where we are, but you want to send the worker to scout rather than build a road on the games tile?????? [23:09] [CMD_Trip> :Þ [23:09] [Citizen_Arnelos> 2 [23:09] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I'm heasitant with the worker scout, but i vote 4 1 [23:09] [CMD_Trip> Togas: because it's unofficial :P [23:09] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> majroity is 2, so that's what I'll vote [23:09] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> 2 [23:09] [notyoueither> 1 for sure. [23:09] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> besides, scouts are for scouting. [23:09] [Togas> 1 [23:09] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> warriors are for scouting. [23:09] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> workers are for improving. [23:09] [Citizen_Arnelos> REPEAT: Togas - I don't understand.... you think we should found where we are, but you want to send the worker to scout rather than build a road on the games tile?????? [23:10] [Togas> Arnelos -- I want to know if game is the best tile. If it is, fine, we settle here. [23:10] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> (and enslaving from foreigners :evilgrin [23:10] [Citizen_Arnelos> Togas - understood [23:10] [notyoueither> arne, yes, what if the worker spots 2 cows? [23:10] [CMD_Trip> four voted for 2, three voted for 1 [23:10] [Citizen_Arnelos> NYE - I get it [23:10] [CMD_Trip> with Vondrack abstaining [23:10] [CMD_Trip> :P [23:10] [vondrack> not abstaining [23:10] [vondrack> listetning [23:10] [vondrack> listening [23:10] [vondrack> I'm all for 1 [23:10] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I would only like to move our site just 1 tile, if at all possible [23:10] [CMD_Trip> you didn't vote [23:10] [Citizen_Arnelos> The 3 votes th at count are NYE, Vondrack, and Ninot (who is absent), but obviously the Consuls can bow to popular will if that is their choice [23:10] [vondrack> I do not need to [23:10] [CMD_Trip> 4 against 4 then :Þ [23:10] [BetaHound> If there are two cows nearby - second city site. [23:11] [minester-n00bs\mrmitchell> gtg [23:11] [CMD_Trip> BH: agreed 100% [23:11] [Citizen_Arnelos> BH has a good point [23:11] * minester-n00bs\mrmitchell is now known as min-n00b\mrmitchell\AFK [23:11] [vondrack> well... an idea... we might move the worker TO the game tile [23:11] [MI_Canidate_E_T> What is there is some fixh just off of the coast?? [23:11] [CMD_Trip> plus it will be incorporated when we reach border size 2 [23:11] [MI_Canidate_E_T> *fish [23:11] [vondrack> that would still reveal more tiles [23:11] [BetaHound> yes - it would [23:11] [notyoueither> we would ghet mor benefit by using the 2 cows for 18 turns prior to a second city. [23:11] [CMD_Trip> Vondracek: that's what some of us have been saying [23:11] [vondrack> but would allow us to start improving the tile [23:12] [vondrack> sorry for repeating what's been said [23:12] [vondrack> not been here from the beginning [23:12] [BetaHound> no problem - you are first consul - you are allowed [23:12] [vondrack> [23:12] [CMD_Trip> it's okay [23:13] [CMD_Trip> and it's 5am :Þ [23:13] [vondrack> I am _a_ Consul, I do not consider myself the first Consul [23:13] [BetaHound> yes - exactly!! [23:13] [Citizen_Arnelos> NYE - perhaps... [23:13] [notyoueither> yes, arne? [23:13] [Citizen_Arnelos> [notyoueither> we would ghet mor benefit by using the 2 cows for 18 turns prior to a second city. [23:13] [BetaHound> IF there are two cows!!! [23:13] [CMD_Trip> so are we going to hold onto the save for 24 hours then? :Þ [23:13] [Citizen_Arnelos> I say "perhaps" because of the lost time it would take the move the settler that far. [23:14] [notyoueither> that's why i said 18 turns. [23:14] [MI_Canidate_E_T> 3 from what I can see of the outlying tiles, there is more forrest SE & SW of teh game [23:14] [Citizen_Arnelos> and the chances of their being 2 cows is.... pretty slim [23:14] [Citizen_Arnelos> *there [23:14] [notyoueither> se, s and sw from my view. [23:15] [CMD_Trip> yes [23:15] [CMD_Trip> and S SW [23:15] [CMD_Trip> and S SE [23:15] [Citizen_Arnelos> I see the same as Trip [23:15] [MI_Canidate_E_T> but there might be another game [23:15] [Togas> someone needs to be the one to make this decision. NYE? Vond? [23:15] [CMD_Trip> what are we going to do? [23:15] [Citizen_Arnelos> agreed with Togas [23:16] [Citizen_Arnelos> this is why we elected the consuls in the first place [23:16] [MI_Canidate_E_T> nod [23:16] [CMD_Trip> to let us argue and them to not listen to us anyways [23:16] [BetaHound> A +3 food starting site would have been nice. we don't have it. So let's move the worker to the game - see what we can see. And then build if nothing better is out there. [23:16] [Citizen_Arnelos> no.... so that there's some small group to make a FINAL decision and get the game moving [23:16] [Citizen_Arnelos> it may not always be the RIGHT decision, but oh well ;p [23:17] [BetaHound> right on! [23:17] * CMD_Trip waits [23:17] [Citizen_Arnelos> the right decision won't necessarily be arrived at by wasting 24 hours, either [23:17] [CMD_Trip> correct [23:17] [MI_Canidate_E_T> 3 from what I can see, if we found here, there will only be 2 coast tiles that we won't have good food for (unless fish) [23:17] [BetaHound> yup [23:17] * CMD_Trip sets mode: +o vondrack [23:18] [notyoueither> ATTENTION, please... [23:18] [Citizen_Arnelos> ultimately, it's a tradeoff.... there IS NO RIGHT DECISION... there are merely options with different potential consequences. Let the Consuls make the final decision. That's why we elected them. They've now heard the arguments of each side.... now let's keep the game moving. [23:18] [Togas> I like to know more about my surroundings in my own games before I found, so that I can make the best possible decisions. I support moving the worker W [23:18] [notyoueither> assuming we move the worker before settling... [23:18] [Togas> right. [23:18] [Citizen_Arnelos> following you, NYE [23:19] [notyoueither> move W to the hills, or S to the game? 1 for W, 2 for S. [23:19] [BetaHound> 2 [23:19] [Togas> 1 [23:19] [Citizen_Arnelos> 2 [23:19] [CMD_Trip> 2 [23:19] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Are they currently on a non-sheilded grassland?? [23:19] [MI_Canidate_E_T> 2 [23:19] [CMD_Trip> yes ET [23:20] [MI_Canidate_E_T> k, I sometimes can't tell.... [23:20] [Citizen_Arnelos> quite frankly... my only concern with founding at the current location is that eventually our coastal tiles will have "wasted" food and income from not being able to build a harbor and commerical docks... but that's a somewhat minor issue [23:21] [notyoueither> Arne, we could disband the original capitol later to fit a more 'perfect' grid. [23:21] [Citizen_Arnelos> especially since having the game NOW is probably worth more than having the harbor and commercial docks LATER [23:21] [CMD_Trip> very minor issue [23:21] [MI_Canidate_E_T> only 2, and I agree, but without any real good way of getting above size six without an aqua makes that kind of moot [23:21] [Citizen_Arnelos> I agree, guys ;p [23:21] [CMD_Trip> did anyone see Theseus' 'expendable capital' setup thread in the Strat forum? [23:21] [notyoueither> oh yes, i did. [23:21] [BetaHound> One good thing about the start - we aren't right smack in the middle. Then again, that could be both good and bad. [23:22] [CMD_Trip> that's all you need to know [23:22] [CMD_Trip> so what'll it be consuls? [23:22] [notyoueither> you set the first 4 cities very close. pump settlers with the cap, then abandon to allow the 4 more room. I have done that very effectively in MP. [23:22] [Citizen_Arnelos> BetaHound - sometimes "middle" is deceptive because the continents (on rare occassions) wrap [23:22] [vondrack> the only drawback is you used one settler in the process [23:23] [CMD_Trip> Consuls: what will the Worker and Settler do? [23:23] [BetaHound> Arnelos - yup - realize that - but we will have at least one flank covered by the sea. [23:24] [MI_Canidate_E_T> 3 I have a request of the consuls, use some of snOOpy's Graphics.. [23:24] [CMD_Trip> I like my graphics mod best :Þ [23:24] [Citizen_Arnelos> BH - unless it's an inland sea like Germany (another rarity), true (hee hee) [23:24] [MI_Canidate_E_T> We may also need to build a Granary sometime soon [23:24] [CMD_Trip> yes [23:24] [CMD_Trip> Granary is good [23:24] [CMD_Trip> we can cut down the trees and get it done quick [23:25] [CMD_Trip> 3 warriors, Granary, then settler [23:25] [Citizen_Arnelos> E_T - granaries are a crapshoot... they're only good if you aren't going to be in a scuffle early on [23:25] [Citizen_Arnelos> If we have close neighbors early on, granary is a disadvantage at 60 shield production [23:25] [notyoueither> ATTENTION... we move worker S. Take screen shot, then allow people on the forum a chance to have input on settlement question. That is the decision of the Consuls. [23:25] [Togas> with no true bonus foodtiles. This may be an excellent site for a granary. [23:25] [CMD_Trip> the consulate has spoken! [23:25] [CMD_Trip> [23:26] [vondrack> Amen [23:26] [MI_Canidate_E_T> If we had a >2 bonus, then it wouldn't be needed, but seeing as we (currently) only have a max of 2 food per person, we will need it at some time [23:26] [vondrack> [23:26] [notyoueither> so let it be written, so let it be done! [23:26] [Citizen_Arnelos> lol [23:26] [vondrack> nye, I shall move the worker and post everything need, ok? [23:26] [notyoueither> *i've always wanted to say that* [23:26] [notyoueither> good. [23:26] [CMD_Trip> only typed, not written :Þ [23:26] [Citizen_Arnelos> (assuming 'poly boards are back up... :crosses fingers: ) [23:26] [vondrack> gonna do that [23:26] [CMD_Trip> it can still be deleted [23:26] [vondrack> everybody, stay with us! [23:27] [CMD_Trip> how long before we send the turn? [23:27] [MI_Canidate_E_T> can we get the save???? [23:27] [CMD_Trip> or rather [23:27] [CMD_Trip> how long before the consulate decides what to do with the settler? [23:28] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Isn't dejon ISDG?? [23:28] [CMD_Trip> yes [23:28] [MI_Canidate_E_T> someone invite him [23:28] [vondrack> can someone invite ZargonX and dejon, please? [23:29] * ZargonX has joined #isdg [23:29] [ZargonX> hey all [23:29] [CMD_Trip> yo [23:29] [Citizen_Arnelos> hey [23:30] [MI_Canidate_E_T> we also need to deside on a secure forum room password [23:30] [Citizen_Arnelos> Vondrack - let us know when the screenie is up [23:30] [Citizen_Arnelos> agreed w/E_T [23:32] [Citizen_Arnelos> . [23:32] [vondrack> sure, just a sec [23:32] [Citizen_Arnelos> np [23:32] [ZargonX> have we reached a conclusion about building or not this turn? [23:32] [MI_Canidate_E_T> we can use this room as a secure place to meet and have the other room for general meetings, hosting foreign onvoys, etc [23:32] [Citizen_Arnelos> Zargon - no [23:32] [ZargonX> ah, thanks. I know I've probably missed most of hte debate [23:32] [MI_Canidate_E_T> not yes, but we are moving the worker south [23:33] [Citizen_Arnelos> btw... I love our civ color [23:33] [ZargonX> onto the game forest? [23:33] [MI_Canidate_E_T> someone invite Ninot [23:33] [Citizen_Arnelos> Zargon - yes [23:33] [MI_Canidate_E_T> [Consul_Ninot> yo [23:33] [CMD_Trip> ninot No such nick/channel [23:34] [Citizen_Arnelos> btw... I assume someone is able to post a log of this chat when it is done? [23:34] [Citizen_Arnelos> (just thinking ahead here) [23:34] [MI_Canidate_E_T> 3 yes [23:35] * Consul_Ninot has joined #ISDG [23:35] [Consul_Ninot> nice [23:35] [notyoueither> hello [23:35] [ZargonX> hi, Ninot [23:36] [Consul_Ninot> hi Zargonny [23:36] [CMD_Trip> we've gotten nothing done in the last few minutes :Þ [23:36] [Consul_Ninot> do we have the save? [23:37] [notyoueither> vonD is loading PTW and moving the worker. [23:37] [CMD_Trip> we're not all here for no reason [23:37] [Consul_Ninot> damn, and i was hoping that we were [23:37] [notyoueither> yes Ninot. there is a screen shot posted on poly, Turn 1 thread. [23:37] [CMD_Trip> too bad :« [23:38] [Consul_Ninot> the cities built i presume? [23:38] [notyoueither> nope. we are waiting for a view from the worker... [23:39] [ZargonX> check out our options, as it were [23:39] [Consul_Ninot> my opinion is we get the worker started on the bonus tile, and settle for where we are. game-in-forest, and general grasslands aint bad.whatever the worker sees from the hill will be too long to get to

	20-02-2003 13:36									#10
	Part 3 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: [23:40] [notyoueither> the worker will move to the game, i belive. [23:40] [vondrack> picture there [23:40] [Consul_Ninot> yeah, built the city [23:40] [Consul_Ninot> *build [23:41] [BetaHound> yee haw! Goody hut. [23:41] [Citizen_Arnelos> we're at monarch level, right? [23:42] [BetaHound> And another enhanced shield square - once the forest is down. [23:42] [BetaHound> yes - monarch [23:42] [BetaHound> er - once the jungle is down [23:42] [Citizen_Arnelos> risks of getting goodie hut with worker? [23:43] [Consul_Ninot> dont bother [23:43] [Consul_Ninot> we'll get it with a warrior, no rush [23:43] [BetaHound> agreed [23:44] [ZargonX> yes, wait until we have a warrior to pop it [23:44] [ZargonX> no need to risk our only worker on something that's not going anywhere [23:44] [Citizen_Arnelos> this is why I asked [23:44] [Consul_Ninot> and it might be full of angry warriors. THAT wont be good for us if we pop it with worker [23:44] [ZargonX> exactly [23:47] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I was Idle for a few moments, soory [23:47] [BetaHound> Bet you we get pottery from it. [23:48] [BetaHound> Early bets? [23:49] [BetaHound> Also - there is a dark smudge in the veil at around 1 o'clock. Can anayone make it out - more forest? [23:51] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I can't tell the difference between jungle and forrest with out a mod.... [23:51] [ZargonX> hard to tell... could be jungle or forest... [23:51] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Doggie, I don't bet on those things... [23:51] [Consul_Ninot> i suspect forest [23:52] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I would wait to pop that hut, atleast until the worker is on tasks that are away from the city and we have a defender in the city [23:53] [BetaHound> Anyways - this dog is going to sleep. I say build where we are - if they come back here for voting. G'night. [23:53] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I've been playing Carthage some (I am sooooo glat to have finally gotten PTW) and I've gotten a lot of Barbs [23:54] [BetaHound> I'm playing carthage in another game and uncovered 5 straight techs. Large map. 6 civs. Lots of room. [23:54] [MI_Canidate_E_T> we playing with restless, roaming or raging Barbs?? [23:54] [BetaHound> restless, I think. Tes, i'm sure. [23:55] [notyoueither> ok. lloks like we are done till about 8pm gmt tomorrow. [23:55] [MI_Canidate_E_T> K, I've been playing Raging.... [23:55] [BetaHound> why's that? [23:55] [Consul_Ninot> city built? [23:56] [notyoueither> we will let people have there say on the settlement issue, then Ninot, vonD and I can get it done. [23:56] [CMD_Trip> I'm back [23:56] [Consul_Ninot> ahhh [23:56] [CMD_Trip> what's happened? [23:56] [Consul_Ninot> indecission [23:56] [CMD_Trip> about what? :P [23:56] [ZargonX> waiting for team input [23:56] [CMD_Trip> I left right before the second screenshot [23:57] [notyoueither> well, i would say it's more to allow people to have a say in an important decision. [23:57] [notyoueither> it's not the same as where to build a wonder, but it is on the same scale. [23:57] [MI_Canidate_E_T> 3 we need to decide on a password that will be used for our secure chatroom..... [23:57] [notyoueither> good point [23:58] [notyoueither> Trip? [23:58] [CMD_Trip> yes? [23:58] [MI_Canidate_E_T> do we want to use the same password as in the game, or something different?? [23:58] [Consul_Ninot> diff [23:58] [notyoueither> password for this room? [23:58] [CMD_Trip> should I make one? [23:58] [notyoueither> good plan, Trip. [23:58] * CMD_Trip sets mode: +k boobs [23:58] * Dominae has joined #ISDG [23:58] [Consul_Ninot> Trip has a plan? [23:59] * CMD_Trip sets mode: -i [23:59] [Dominae> Hello! Thanks Trip! [23:59] [CMD_Trip> anyone who wants to join, type this: [23:59] [CMD_Trip> /join boobs [23:59] [CMD_Trip> [23:59] [CMD_Trip> er [23:59] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Trip, something else, please [23:59] [CMD_Trip> blah :P [23:59] * CMD_Trip sets mode: -k boobs [23:59] * CMD_Trip sets mode: +k wordpass [23:59] [Dominae> Anyone reading my posts on the Turn 1 thread? Felt like I was the only one thinking about our turn... [00:00] [CMD_Trip> /join #ISDG wordpass [00:00] [CMD_Trip> to get into this room [00:00] [notyoueither> i saw them Dominae. we cross posted. [00:00] [MI_Canidate_E_T> 3 this password will be used at all times for all of our team members [00:00] [Dominae> Ok, thanks nye. [00:00] [ZargonX> sounds good [00:00] [CMD_Trip> okay okay [00:00] [CMD_Trip> will this be the new room, or the other room? [00:01] [BetaHound> OK. G'night. [00:01] [CMD_Trip> nite nite! [00:01] * BetaHound has quit IRC (Quit: ) [00:01] * CMD_Trip sets mode: +o Consul_Ninot [00:01] [CMD_Trip> okay [00:01] [CMD_Trip> so what's happened? [00:01] [CMD_Trip> I've missed some stuff :P [00:01] [Consul_Ninot> thats right, im oped, woo [00:01] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I suggest this for secure, as Vondrack only has OP privliges for that one and that one for general things, embassy visites, etc [00:02] [CMD_Trip> all consuls should be ops [00:02] [Consul_Ninot> yeah [00:02] [CMD_Trip> otherwise it defeats the purpose of having more than one consul :Þ [00:02] [Consul_Ninot> indeed [00:03] [CMD_Trip> you're only saying that because you want ops :Þ [00:03] [CMD_Trip> anyways [00:03] [MI_Canidate_E_T> If we have a general room and a secure one, then whom ever is teh first person into the secure one, locks in the password [00:03] [CMD_Trip> has a decision been made as to where we will build our city? [00:03] [Consul_Ninot> what? you suggested it [00:04] [CMD_Trip> that doesn't mean you're only saying that because you want ops [00:04] [Consul_Ninot> :s that seemd to be in agreement [00:05] * MI_Canidate_E_T is going to go and have a smoke [00:05] [Consul_Ninot> anyways, no decision made. waiting for team to decide together [00:05] [CMD_Trip> okay [00:05] [ZargonX> 8pm GMT? [00:05] [notyoueither> Trip, re city. No. Decision deferred until 8pm gmt tomorrow. [00:05] [CMD_Trip> how long will we hold onto the save? [00:05] [CMD_Trip> agh [00:05] [CMD_Trip> okay [00:05] [notyoueither> till then. [00:05] [CMD_Trip> at least we'll kind of have time for elections :Þ [00:06] * Dominae has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [00:06] * MI_Canidate_E_T is also waiting for the save to be released to the public.... [00:06] [CMD_Trip> I don't think it will be released :P [00:06] [MI_Canidate_E_T> why not?? [00:06] [CMD_Trip> no password [00:07] [MI_Canidate_E_T> We set the password... All of our people in the private forum are team members, unless someone really thinks we have a spy in our mists... [00:08] [CMD_Trip> if you release the initial save, there's no password on it yet [00:09] [ZargonX> yes, I would hold off until turn two [00:09] [ZargonX> that pictures show all that you really need to see, anyway [00:09] [MI_Canidate_E_T> and your point is... if we release it in a secure manner, to our team members, either now or later, what does that matter?? [00:11] [Citizen_Arnelos> . [00:12] * Dominae has joined #ISDG [00:12] * MI_Canidate_E_T is really now going to have a cigarette [nickfit] [00:12] [Dominae> Woo-hoo, I'm back. [00:13] [CMD_Trip> guess who's back [00:13] [CMD_Trip> back again ;P [00:13] [Dominae> Do you have to get nominations to run for a Minister position? [00:13] [CMD_Trip> I don't think so [00:14] [Dominae> Oh, so I can just put "MI_Candidate" in front of my name? [00:14] [ZargonX> not according to our constitution... [00:14] [CMD_Trip> sure [00:14] [CMD_Trip> Zargon: no minister candidates have been nominated . . . [SPAM REMOVED] . . . [00:41] [CMD_Trip> even Dominae's famous quote? [00:41] [Dominae> Ok, later all. If you're not sure about what to think about our first turn, think what I think: the Settler must move due West onto the Hill! [00:42] [Citizen_Arnelos> pfft [00:42] [Dominae> "Famous"? [00:42] [CMD_Trip> yes [00:42] [Citizen_Arnelos> build at current location - use that games tile [00:43] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Why Dominae? [00:43] [Dominae> All the Game tile does for us now is waste Shields on our Warriors. [00:44] [Citizen_Arnelos> "waste"? [00:44] [Citizen_Arnelos> warriors = go get goodie huts and make contact with other civs [00:44] [Dominae> 3+3+3 = 9. Warrior costs 10, we lose 2 Shields on the last turn. [00:45] [Dominae> By getting our first Warrior out one turn later, we avoid wasted Shields on all subsequent ones. [00:45] [Dominae> E_T: I posted my reasons in the Turn 1 thread. [00:45] [Citizen_Arnelos> yes, but we'll also get the warriors faster this way... AND we don't waste a full turn moving the settler [00:46] [Citizen_Arnelos> which means we can switch to non-warrior production sooner [00:47] * Consul_Ninot has quit IRC (Quit: ) [00:47] [Dominae> True. [00:47] [Dominae> But there are other reasons for moving the Settler. [00:48] [Dominae> 1. Better view (not that important, but significant). [00:48] [Dominae> 2. Avoid early disaster with the hut. [00:48] [Dominae> 3. Get away from the coast which we cannot use (3 tiles). [00:48] [CMD_Trip> good thing I'm not playing the game [00:48] [CMD_Trip> I get barbs from a hut like that EVERY time :Þ [00:48] [Citizen_Arnelos> #3 is the one reason I like [00:49] [Dominae> Not 2? [00:49] [Citizen_Arnelos> I don't like building cities that waste coastal tiles... but that's just a personal pet peeve [00:49] [Citizen_Arnelos> Dominae - we'll build a warrior fast enough [00:50] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I agree also, but I would like to keep the game for use from the start (faster production) [00:50] [Dominae> Yes, but disaster can strike. If the hut pops 3 Warriors, we could be in trouble with unfavorable RNG rolls. [00:50] [Dominae> Ask Sir Ralph about that one. [00:50] [Citizen_Arnelos> this is one of the reasons I was asking what the probability of spawning warriors from that hut was at monarch level [00:51] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Is SR a ISDG member?? [00:51] [Dominae> Dunno. [00:51] [Citizen_Arnelos> but since we're given 10 turns and it only takes 4 to produce a warrior... we can always wait 7 turns and have the first warrior pop the hut in 7 turns 1 turn before the second warrior is in the city and able to defend it (thus before any warrior from the hut could reach the city) [00:51] [Dominae> Really, the production difference is only one turn. [00:52] [Citizen_Arnelos> it's 1 turn twice [00:52] [Citizen_Arnelos> plus the turn for not moving the settler [00:52] [Dominae> Arnelos: our borders will expand, popping the hut in ten turns. To be safe we'd have to keep both Warriors close to home. [00:53] [Citizen_Arnelos> Dominae... that's why I'm arguing that you pop it with the 1st warrior on turn 7, so that you effectively have both warriors around on turn 8 when the warriors could threaten capital [00:53] [MI_Canidate_E_T> we should have a warrior built (our 2nd) on the same turn as the boarders expand [00:53] [Citizen_Arnelos> E_T, it'll be built faster than that [00:53] [Dominae> No, I think it's 1 turn total. Next turn, Settler moves, Worker moves onto Bonus Grassland. When Worker finishes Mine, our capital will have 2 Shields. [00:54] [Citizen_Arnelos> No.... [00:54] [Citizen_Arnelos> bonus grassland + mine = no bonus [00:54] [Dominae> 7 Shields, I mean. [00:55] [Citizen_Arnelos> (until RR) [00:55] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Mining Sheilded gives you 1 extra, especially if you don't have any water to irrigate... [00:56] [Dominae> Yup, you get 2F/2S from a mined Bonus Grassland. [00:56] [Citizen_Arnelos> why not just use the game? [00:57] [Dominae> Because of the other reasons I mentioned above. PLUS, if the game is further away from our capital, more than 1 city will have access to it. [00:57] [Dominae> That's actually the most compellint reason, unless we play to Borg all the way. [00:57] [MI_Canidate_E_T> hmmm, goo point there [00:57] [Dominae> *compelling [00:57] [MI_Canidate_E_T> *good [00:57] [Dominae> [00:57] [Citizen_Arnelos> hmmm.... someone needs to do a nitty-gritty analysis of the details on this one... how much difference will it make in terms of the turns lost moving the settler and the extra turn of production on the first warrior.... E_T? :cute; [00:58] [MI_Canidate_E_T> are we going for full out borg or a bit looser style [00:58] [Dominae> I don't mind doing it, I do it all the time in SP. [00:58] [Dominae> Nitty-gritty I mean. [00:58] [Citizen_Arnelos> I don't like borging in Civ3..... it rocked in Civ2, though

	20-02-2003 13:37									#11
	Last part Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: [01:00] [MI_Canidate_E_T> it would mean a difference of more than just a turn, because it wil take 1 turn to move the worker, then 3 turns 2 mine it, so basically 5 turns to get ramped up [01:01] [Citizen_Arnelos> the "optimal city number" part of the corruption equation reduces the value of borging because it reduces the pool of gross income on which your better corruption rates are being applied. [01:01] [Dominae> My math is off, sorry. But we still only lose 1 turn, only the 2S waste is still there. Ideally we would not have moved the Worker onto the Game, but directly onto the BG instead. [01:01] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I think that we had look at a looser style [01:02] * vondrack is now known as vondrack|AFK [01:02] [Citizen_Arnelos> with a commercial trait, which is best when it can apply to more gross income, it's better to spread cities out, since you get more gross income over time for the same # of cities, which in turn makes the net income bonus of commercial more valuable [01:03] [Dominae> Arnelos: check out the thread I linked to in the City placement thread. [01:03] [Citizen_Arnelos> that said, borging means having more production centers overall and economizes the distance from capital part of the corruption equation... so it can depend [01:04] [Dominae> A Commercial trait Commercial. Basically the point is that Commercial civs benefit the most from tighter city-spacing. [01:04] [Citizen_Arnelos> my *hunch* is that with the commercial trait, borging becomes less valuable because the part of the corruption equation it applies to increases in importance and that's the part of the equation that makes borging far less advantageous than in Civ2... but I'll admit it's just a hunch... I've never run an analysis of it [01:06] [Dominae> And remember that the Corruption benefits are really most useful (in this game at least) in terms of the reduced Shield waste, and not the increase trade or reduced Commerce waste. [01:06] [MI_Canidate_E_T> and only applies to the MOCN [01:07] [MI_Canidate_E_T> the main problem is micromanagement [01:07] [Dominae> We have time and manpower for MM. [01:07] [MI_Canidate_E_T> which you can do a lot more ina PBEM game, compaired to a regular game [01:08] [MI_Canidate_E_T> but with really tight spacing, you limit the amount of MM that you can do [01:08] [Dominae> I just ran the test, and you're both right that it is indeed a 2-turn loss. Still, I feel that, unless we're sure to relocate the capital using a jump, we're not starting in the ideal position. [01:09] [Citizen_Arnelos> because (I think) what the commercial trait DOES is effectively improve the "rank" of each city, thus meaning that for the same # of cities, you have less corruption... which means, in turn, that if you cram those cities into a small area where half that number of cities could equally exist, you're minimizing the ADVANTAGE you gain with the trait by minimizing the gross income it's being applied to... whereas if you spread o [01:09] [Citizen_Arnelos> did that get cut off? [01:09] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Especially in a Demo game, where you might have a "govenor" of each of the cities and they are all fighting for the same tiles [01:09] [MI_Canidate_E_T> whereas if you spread o [01:10] [MI_Canidate_E_T> yes it did [01:10] [Citizen_Arnelos> out your cities, the advantage is permitted to apply to a wider share of gross income because the same cities are spread out over more territory and making more production and trade in the long run. In the short run, it may make minimal or no difference, but in the long run, two civs both using a spread out city pattern will advatnage the commercial civ more than two civs using a borg pattern.... [01:10] [Citizen_Arnelos> that get cut off? [01:10] [CMD_Trip> borg cube! [01:10] [Dominae> That will not do at all. A well-run economy depends on the tiles beings spread around as needed between cities. [01:11] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Yes, but that is also assuming that you have people who will do that. WhenI was City Planner?Domestic Minister of teh SPDG, I had to plann ahead for that and had problems [01:12] [Citizen_Arnelos> I'll admit that my thinking on the issue is heavily influenced by a more long-term approach (one of the reasons I don't like borging), whereas a multiplayer game (because whether or not you even SURVIVE is many times determined in the short term) might greatly increase the value of borging compared to my sensibilities [01:12] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I beleave that with the RA system, they had some too, but not too bad [01:13] [Citizen_Arnelos> going idle....... [01:13] * MI_Canidate_E_T slaps Citizen_Arnelos around a bit with a large trout [01:13] [MI_Canidate_E_T> hehe [01:14] [Citizen_Arnelos> pfft [01:14] * Citizen_Arnelos slaps MI_Canidate_E_T around a bit with a large trout [01:14] [Dominae> Arnelos: [01:14] [Dominae> There is only one problem with tight city spacing: Corruption due to number of cities. With a bunch of cities around your capital, it can be frustrating to see a city in the second ring around your capital be 50% corrupt, even if it is just 5-6 tiles away from your palace. [01:14] [Dominae> Commercial break: Did you know that the commercial trait is just like having a free courthouse in all your cities, as far as corruption due to number of cities is concerned? Let me rephrase that: The Commercial trait takes care of the greatest drawback of the most powerful tool in Civ3. It reduces OCN corruption for the tight build pattern. [01:15] [Dominae> the Commercial trait is ideal when you don’t have cheap buildings for border expansions: Militaristic, Industrious, and Expansionist. Here are some examples of what the Commercial trait can do for some civilizations: [01:15] [Dominae> I know that's a bunch to read, but it addresses what you're talking about exactly. This is from alexman, our local Corruption expert. [01:17] [Citizen_Arnelos> Dominae... I know corruption is better under commercial and that a commercial civ using a borg pattern will be better off than a non-commercial civ using a borg pattern... the issue is that what I WANT to compare is whether a com civ using a spread pattern has more or less advantage over a non-com civ using a spread pattern than a com civ using a borg pattern over a non-com civ using a borg pattern... and whether a com civ h [01:17] [Citizen_Arnelos> did that get cut off? [01:18] [MI_Canidate_E_T> yes [01:19] [Dominae> Hm, but that comparison is irreleveant right now, since we are playing a Commercial civ. Thus a powerful strategy, 3-spacing, is available to us, and is supported by one of our traits. [01:20] [Citizen_Arnelos> Dominae - obviously, the important part got cut off ;p [01:20] [Citizen_Arnelos> the issue is that what I WANT to compare is whether a com civ using a spread pattern has more or less advantage over a non-com civ using a spread pattern than a com civ using a borg pattern over a non-com civ using a borg pattern... and whether a com civ has more advantage under borg or spread [01:20] [Citizen_Arnelos> there we go [01:21] [Dominae> And you're right that long-term benefits are not that important. In the long run, the extra Commerce from city centers is actually teh main benefit of Commercial. But in the short run it's all about that 1 or 2 extra Shield per city. [01:21] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I think that a hybrid spacing is the way to go [01:22] [Dominae> I'm not sure what we mean by "borging"...Let me just say that, 3-spacing allows, given average terrain, all cities to max out naturally at around size 12. That's the size we want our cities at, since Sanitation is far far away. [01:23] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I like what Thesidus (SP?) had set up [01:23] [Dominae> The extra cities we will have will be making best use of our best tiles (all improved, because of our Industrious Workers). [01:23] [Citizen_Arnelos> Borging = 2-3 city spacing [01:24] [Dominae> 3-space is really only a guide. It's basically the average distance between cities that guarantees cities max out at size 12. [01:24] [Citizen_Arnelos> Borging = cramming as many cities into small space as possible... was an AWESOME strategy in Civ2 [01:24] [MI_Canidate_E_T> just to be clear 2 spacing is *-* and 3 is *--*, right?? [01:25] [Dominae> It also happends to be the distance where you don't need Culture to get your borders to overlap (important as Carthage), and allows 1-turn movement between cities, with Roads. [01:25] [Dominae> Yes. [01:26] [Citizen_Arnelos> yes [01:26] [Citizen_Arnelos> E_T - save sent to Togas [01:26] [MI_Canidate_E_T> what about 4 spacing, I used to use 5 spacing (like the AI does), but I've changed to mostly 4 now [01:26] [Dominae> And (finally, I've been talking a lot here), tile overlap is a good thing, because it lets you MM to reduce waste. You get to use every singe Food, Shield and Commerce out of every workable tile, every turn. [01:27] [Citizen_Arnelos> I agree with E_T... 4 is pretty good, though I'm biased toward 4-5 [01:27] [Dominae> 5 is wasteful, since you will never be using all your tiles before Sanitation. 4 is okay, I used that for a long time. [01:28] [Dominae> But the jump from 4-3 is where the real power comes from. [01:28] [Citizen_Arnelos> I like to allow overlap, but to make sure that no tile goes outside of a city radius and to ensure that all cities (in an overall cityplan) have enough food to feed enough laborers to cover all of their production tiles like hills and mountains [01:28] [Citizen_Arnelos> see, that's my thing .... my favorite part of the game is Industrial and Modern... which in a multiplayer game, we may never see [01:29] [Citizen_Arnelos> which is why I'm completely fine with 4 tile spacing in a multiplayer PTW game [01:29] [Dominae> I know what you mean, Arnelos. But we have to be thinking about the the BC years now... [01:29] [Citizen_Arnelos> I think we agree on that ;p [01:29] [MI_Canidate_E_T> But I think that what Theseus had was fairly good, first group is 3 tiles, later ones are 4 tiles [01:30] [Dominae> Actually what he had was 2/3/5, but that's a whole other thread. [01:30] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Also, with a tighter spacing, you get the next few cities started sooner... [01:31] [CMD_Trip> still going, wow :P [01:31] [Dominae> Arnelos, E_T: I know where you're coming from about looser spacing than 3-tile, I was heavily biased toward 4-spacing for a long while. [01:31] [MI_Canidate_E_T> That's it, but we could do 3/4/4 [01:31] [CMD_Trip> make sure you post your results somewhere [01:31] [Citizen_Arnelos> 3, then 4 might work [01:31] [Dominae> But the fact of the matter is, 3-spacing is just a lot more powerful than 4 or 5-spacing, no matter how you look at it. [01:31] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Most are in the Strat forums, right?? [01:31] [Dominae> Trip, all this is in the Strat forum. [01:32] [Citizen_Arnelos> Dominae... that's the part where I'm just not convinced... I need to see numbers. Numbers will convince me [01:32] [MI_Canidate_E_T> run a few game Arnie [01:32] [Citizen_Arnelos> because, intuitively, I think about the optimal city number and I'm biased into believing that it would kill such tight spacing [01:32] [MI_Canidate_E_T> it depends on how much space you have to expand [01:32] [Citizen_Arnelos> because all of those zillions of cities outside of that core area will be hopelessly corrupt [01:32] [Dominae> I don't have numbers, but I do have successes! I feel dumb saying this, but ever since I've been going 3-spacing, Emperor has gotten easier and eaiser. [01:33] [Dominae> Corruption due to OCN will never be that bad against human opponents, unless we conquer our nearest neighbors very fast. [01:33] [CMD_Trip> it might be strat forum stuff [01:34] [CMD_Trip> but it's too much stuff for me to read :Þ [01:34] [Dominae> The crippling Corruption due to # cities comes when you've got more than your fair share of land. [01:34] [Citizen_Arnelos> yeah... and in single player, you always do [01:34] [Dominae> Trip: I'll try to bring it to us in distilled form! [01:34] [CMD_Trip> thanks [01:34] [CMD_Trip> gonna take a shower now... be back in a bit [01:34] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Arnelos, AFAIK, Borging is considered tobe 2 spacing [01:35] [Dominae> Arnelos: Right. But in MP what kinds is economic power. [01:35] [Citizen_Arnelos> yeah, that's right [01:35] [Dominae> what *matters [01:35] [Citizen_Arnelos> Dominae - agreed on importance in MP [01:35] [Citizen_Arnelos> as I said... what will really sell me is the cold hard facts [01:36] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Dominae has me mostly convinced [01:36] [Citizen_Arnelos> I'll try some games at 3... [01:36] [Dominae> Too bad, I have none to give (too complex to write down in numbers). [01:36] [Citizen_Arnelos> (obviously problem being that games in single player won't limit me to space like games in MP ;p ) [01:37] [Citizen_Arnelos> *obvious (grammar goes downhill at night ) [01:37] [Dominae> If you're up for an interesting game, try AU203 or AU204. With 4 or 5-spacing it will be rough on Monarch or Emperor, guaranteed. With 3-spacing, you've got a good chance. That's the kind of "proof" I can give. [01:37] [Citizen_Arnelos> which one is AU203? [01:37] [Citizen_Arnelos> (and 204 for that matter) [01:38] [MI_Canidate_E_T> depends on how you play and your start, our closest neighbor might have very good bonus & Lux tiles [01:38] [MI_Canidate_E_T> and caould grow really quick [01:38] [Dominae> AU203 - Power of Communism. Basically the map is designed so that it's a race to a couple of chokepoints. [01:39] [Citizen_Arnelos> I'll have to try 'em [01:39] [MI_Canidate_E_T> What is AU202, the expansionist one?? [01:39] [Dominae> AU204 is a random game. It's designed (by me) to put the player in not often-encountered situations. [01:39] [Citizen_Arnelos> going idle to check 'poly boards [01:39] [Dominae> E_T: Yes. [01:40] [Dominae> Arnelos: If you don't have the time to play the games, read some of the reports ('AARs'). They're very telling. [01:40] [Citizen_Arnelos> ok [01:40] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Dominae, they really need to make a directory of the AU games [01:41] [MI_Canidate_E_T> It took me forever to find the AU 101 [01:42] [Citizen_Arnelos> the only way I found AU 101 was by using the link E_T gave me [01:43] [MI_Canidate_E_T> I was reading over the AU mod, too. I would have liked to have seen some of that in this game, esp the reduced galley moves on ocean, to remove the suicide galleys [01:44] [Dominae> E_T: Dictionary is a good idea. We're already sort of working on it... [01:45] [MI_Canidate_E_T> Dominae, a personal question, are you a male or female? I've always wonders with that handle... [01:45] [Dominae> Ah! Male. [01:46] [Dominae> I always wondered about 'Catt' myself! [01:47] [Dominae> Re: AU. Theseus and MarkG want to put them all in the "Must Read" threads, as it's a thing particular to 'Poly... [01:48] [MI_Canidate_E_T> we should have them in the ISDG, too [01:48] [Dominae> Ok, nice chatting with you two, I must be off to bed. I'll be thinking about our start position as I fall asleep!