20-02-2003 09:46									#1
	Cows in early game. Emperor level. Irrigate or mine them? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you have cows around your capital or 2nd city at the very start of emperor game. What do you do to them?

I read someone said always irrigate but I think mining them would be better. The city grows super fast anyway. Usually flood plains are nearby.

Is there a clear cut choice?

	20-02-2003 10:03									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Irrigate, build a granary (if there is any kind of decent production available), and turn that growth into settler after settler. With a granary, irrigating instead of mining gives you a settler every six turns instead of one every eight turns. (Note: you'll almost certainly have to crank up the luxury slider to support the size necessary to operate the city as a settler pump. But that's fine, especially if the city in the question is the capital and/or can make good use of rivers for extra gold.)

When two cattle are available, irrigate one and mine the other. Irrigating the second one doesn't give any faster growth, since excess food above what's needed to grow is wasted.

Nathan

	20-02-2003 10:58									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Or if you have a LOT of room to expand, irrigate both, give one to each of your first 2 cities, and build granaries in both cities.

	20-02-2003 11:05									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Irrigate cows always! Cows are probably the best resource for early city growth and irrigating them maximizes their effectiveness. (and as nbarclay said, don't forge the Granary! )

	20-02-2003 13:55									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW Or if you have a LOT of room to expand, irrigate both, give one to each of your first 2 cities, and build granaries in both cities.

Actually, that doesn't work because you end up losing more to unused excess food than you gain from the second irrigation. With two cities always working one irrigated cow each, you get two six-turn settler pumps, for a total of 20 settlers per 60 turns. With one city using both cows and the other having a granary but no food bonuses, you get a 4-turn settler pump and a 10-turn settler pump, for a total of 21 settlers per 60 turns.

If you're willing to do the micromanagement, you could irrigate both cows and alternate turns between your capital using both and each city using one. That would give the capital the same food as having one irrigated and one mined, and would give the other city half the food advantage of the irrigated cow. But whether it's worth the hassle and the potential for mistakes, especially in anything but a PBEM game, is another question.

Nathan

	20-02-2003 14:14									#6
	Remove this text

One cow: irrigate and use the extra food to expand quicker.

Two cows on grass, or one cow, one wheat: Irrigate one, mine the other, build a granary and prepare a 4-turn settler factory.

Two or three cows on plains: irrigate all, build a granary and prepare a 6- or even 4-turn settler factory.

	20-02-2003 21:33									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

SR hit on an important point - there is a difference between a grassland cow and a plains cow. Mining a plains cow does nothing. So you always irrigate those. Grassland cows... well, it depends on how many you have, like others have said.

-Arrian

	20-02-2003 21:48									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Arrian there is a difference between a grassland cow and a plains cow. Mining a plains cow does nothing. So you always irrigate those. Grassland cows... well, it depends on how many you have... -Arrian

Arrian, with your permission I'm going to have this quote made into a plaque to hang on the wall. Truly words to live by! Only Civ 3 people would understand the concept of "Mining a plains cow"

	20-02-2003 21:58									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Of course, be sure to include a footnote indicating that this applies only under despotism, and that mining a plains cow will, in fact, increase shield output under any other form of goverment.

-Arrian

	20-02-2003 22:32									#10
	Re: Cows in early game. Emperor level. Irrigate or mine them? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Definately irrigate.

Mining cows under Despotism doesn't yeild anything.

From most desirable to least desirable tiles to be irrigated that have a choice between irrigating and mining once the city is big enough to still work all tiles.

1. Desert
2. Plains without resources
3. Plains with cows.
4. Plains with other resources (If Resource adds exactly 1 food, this is USELESS under Despotism)
5. Grassland with cow
6. Grassland with shield (USELESS under Despotism)
7. Grassland without shield and no resources (USELESS under Despotism)
8. Grassland with other resources, including Wine

And most desirable to least desirabe to be mined that have a choice between irrigated and mining once the city is big enough to still work all tiles.

1. Grassland with most resources, including Wine
2. Grassland without shield and no resources
3. Grassland with shield
4. Grassland with cow
5. Plains with resources
6. Plains with cow (USELESS under Despotism)
7. Plains without resources
8. Desert

There's no relationship between plains & flood plains.

Flood plains are near desert instead.

quote: Originally posted by Artifex If you have cows around your capital or 2nd city at the very start of emperor game. What do you do to them? I read someone said always irrigate but I think mining them would be better. The city grows super fast anyway. Usually flood plains are nearby. Is there a clear cut choice?

	20-02-2003 23:28									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Mining a plains with cow is useless under Despotism. Mining a grassland with cow gives two shields instead of one.

Also note that under despotism, irrigating a grassland with wine gives an extra food, and can therefore be a viable option.

	21-02-2003 00:01									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And you probably don't want to spend any time improving desert unless a roadway is vital for some other purpose. Even then, a mine or irrigation is probably well down the priority list in terms of worker activity.

Catt

	21-02-2003 01:19									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

Hey let's not forget about mining tundra

	21-02-2003 01:35									#14
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky Hey let's not forget about mining tundra

Hey! I had to do this in AU204, heh.

	21-02-2003 01:45									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Mines and Mooo don't mix

	21-02-2003 02:29									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

To my knowelege, there is no irrigation of tundra allowed.

Anyway; forest is a better use for tundra:

Turnda + Mine + Road : 1/1/1
Tundra + Forest + Road: 1/2/1

quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky Hey let's not forget about mining tundra

	21-02-2003 02:43									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn To my knowelege, there is no irrigation of tundra allowed. Anyway; forest is a better use for tundra: Turnda + Mine + Road : 1/1/1 Tundra + Forest + Road: 1/2/1

After RR, they are both 1/2/1.

	21-02-2003 04:05									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn To my knowelege, there is no irrigation of tundra allowed. Anyway; forest is a better use for tundra: Turnda + Mine + Road : 1/1/1 Tundra + Forest + Road: 1/2/1

You can't plant forrest for a while, but you can mine right away.

To bad Global warming doesn't melt the permafrost.

	21-02-2003 07:01									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

It all depends on how much food the city can get total.

There's two kinds of food bonus: strong (4 food in despotism) and weak (3 food in despotism.) Strong is wheat, cattle, or forest-game on grassland. Weak is wheat/cattle/forest-game on plains, wines on grassland, fish in freshwater lake, or flood plains. (This presumes you can irrigate all the tiles in question. With no irrigation available, the strong ones are weak and the weak ones are useless.)

A city requires three weak or one strong and one weak food bonus to reach the +5 food/turn threshold. That's growth every two turns with the granary, and then any food beyond that is completely wasted. Once you have the city at +5 food/turn, mine everything.

So if you have two grassland wheat/cattle, irrigate one and mine the other. If you have two of those and also a floodplain/grassland wine/etc in range, mine both.

(There's also the Uber food bonus - flood plains wheat - which puts the city at +5 food/turn all by itself. But you can't mine that so it doesn't really enter into this discussion.)

	21-02-2003 09:23									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

Definitely irrigate. If two Grassland Cows are available, you're golden: irrigate both, using them to grow one Granary city (probably the capitol) every two turns, while the other gets a "Food boost" (4 instead of regular 2) every other turn.

If fresh water is available, I suggest always irrigating bonus Food tiles early. The extra Food does a lot more for you than the production provided for by a mine. There are extreme circumstances (lots of Flood Plains), but generally I stick to this plan.

Edit: Just read T-Hawk's post, which makes a lot of sense. Really you're trying to get as close to growth every 2 turns as possible (with Granary of course), without waste. Surpluses of 3 and 4 will result in waste, so always try to divert those to nearby cities to make the maximum use of your Food.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 09:58									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

so a little micromanagement is in order right? when you talk about diverting the food every other turn.

	21-02-2003 10:10									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, it involves micro-management. But it is something I have learned to live with, because the results are worth it. It's simple really: do you want to waste those 2 Food, or do you want to transfer them to that other city's Food box? It just takes some effort to follow through with the logic. But I never micro-manage like this past the Ancient times, only in the BC years where it counts the most.


Dominae

	21-02-2003 21:19									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Just started a game with 3 cows, 1 grassland, 2 plains but the closest open water source is far from usable. Aztec's capital is on the freshwater lake and forests are between it and the city.

	21-02-2003 21:21									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Unless the city is all tundra and water: There are much more important tiles to improve.

Tundra cities normally start with some forest anyway. Usually I don't get around to anything other than hooking up an all tundra - water city to the trade network along with any furs present in the ancient era.
(My workers are busy improving better tiles)

On the Global Warming; on my mod, global warming on tundra produces coast.

quote: Originally posted by Jawa Jocky You can't plant forrest for a while, but you can mine right away. To bad Global warming doesn't melt the permafrost.

	21-02-2003 22:44									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Does a Tundra tile with a city on it ever transform into coast?