20-02-2003 11:22									#1
	Is there any reason a civ couldn't have more than one UU? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Some countries have so many good potential UUs that its a shame you have to pick only one. I'm considering giving certain civs additional UUs, and balancing this by giving other civs bonus techs, or possibly bonus attributes.

	20-02-2003 12:57									#2
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Bonus attributes are way too powerful bonuses. I know, I've tried. I made a civ with 3 attributes (mil, ind, rel - I know, the best traits there are), no starting techs, and no UU. It was way too powerful still.

Bonus tech is a possible option. Or a weaker trait (expansionistic). But I wouldn't bet on it.

	20-02-2003 14:14									#3
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Expansionist isn't weak.

	20-02-2003 14:30									#4
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It's weaker than mil/ind/rel... or actually it's a matter of opinion and playstyle.

	20-02-2003 14:58									#5
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If you are playing as a peaceful builder, mil is utterly useless.

if you start on a small island exp is useless.

rel/ind are always useful

com is always useful... eventually. But given the importance of early game that could be too late.

bonus attributes are almost always going to be more significant than a UU unless you start creating Über-UUs (UUUs?) because with the existing UUs you can always make do quite happily with the standard unit.

might be interesting to try to add a second UU to every civ. perhaps a naval UU and a land-based UU for every civ would be a interesting project

	20-02-2003 16:19									#6
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That's the sort of thing I was thinking, such as a Viking Longship (scandinavian galley UU that can traverse sea squares, otherwise identical to gallies), or a Scots Guard unit for the English.

	20-02-2003 16:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace if you start on a small island exp is useless.

Expansionists are one tech towads map making.

Expansionists will find out earlier that they are on a small island.

	20-02-2003 16:28									#8
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Some countries have so many good potential UUs that its a shame you have to pick only one. I'm considering giving certain civs additional UUs, and balancing this by giving other civs bonus techs, or possibly bonus attributes.

While bonus traits are never going to work (I'd take Mil/Ind/Exp, no techs/UUs over any existing civ), a second UU that's nothing special would not be unbalancing. Giving England an indutrial age +1 to 1 stat 2nd UU wouldn't make it the best civ.
You could experiment with neutral/negative UUs which would be abuot the same/worse as existing units. Giving a civ another UU and a negative UU could be balanced.
Bonus techs could also only appear in the Industrial or Modern age. I've tried this and it affects your research path considerably especially if they are not initial techs. If the Greeks have atomic theory, say, they would often the only civ I am in competition for the Hoover Dam with. It could take a few late advantages to compete with an early UU like the mounted warrior or immortal.

	20-02-2003 17:08									#9
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I just make England Ind/Com thats useful and makes up for the shite that is the man o war

	20-02-2003 19:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I just make England Ind/Com thats useful and makes up for the shite that is the man o war

That makes them better but at the expense of individuality. They'd be worse than Carthage and France.

	23-02-2003 02:03									#11
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How many times do I have to say it? Expansionistic is (usually) the strongest trait (especially in MP).

	23-02-2003 03:33									#12
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm How many times do I have to say it? Expansionistic is (usually) the strongest trait (especially in MP).

Until more people play enough MP with Expantionist civs to see the Expantionist civs much larger and more advanced by the late Ancient era 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 times.

	23-02-2003 04:11									#13
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm How many times do I have to say it? Expansionistic is (usually) the strongest trait (especially in MP).

I disagree. Expansionist is the 2nd best trait (after Industrious). The English have OK traits but only the Americans really make up for a bad UU.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Until more people play enough MP with Expantionist civs to see the Expantionist civs much larger and more advanced by the late Ancient era 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 times.

I doubt this. The number of cows is far more important. I've not finished the one PBEM I've played. In it, I'm the only expansionist and am roughly equal 1st largest having got the settler. We're not out of the ancient era yet so if he has more cows...

	23-02-2003 04:53									#14
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I've been in about 50 MP games through the ancient era. The number of times the Expantionist civ(s) get free settlers and / or large numbers of techs from huts vastly out number the times they do not. Usually they get both.

Of course, then they could have cows too. Or they could set up a settler pump.

	23-02-2003 22:39									#15
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And that`s why I always face in my games, sooner or latter, a big great nation with looots of cities and looots of military units. So many huts I lost to those guys!

On this last game of PTW, I surprisingly found no huts at all... I think AI got all of them. Those arabs were just above me, and if I weren`t too fast, they would have a big great nation to dwarf me... If only I had not used the Bowmen...

	24-02-2003 02:50									#16
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Maybe instead of balancing the other civs, you could remove a trait or starting techs from the civs with additional units, and not allow the new units to give a golden age either.

	24-02-2003 05:44									#17
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In my opinion, you can give many UUs to each civ, probably make all units unique... But that would be a hard task... (Under this suggestion, all units in each civ would be name differently and have different stats, but, possibly, the same image. For example, US stealth fighter would be F-117, stealth bomber - B-2, bomber - B-29, modern armour - M-1 Abrams, Tank - Sherman, etc. While Russia would have MiGs, T-29 tanks, and their infantry would be cheaper and weaker and called "conscripts". Britain would have Spitfires, Tornadoes, Scorpion tanks, France would have Mirage fighters, etc. Of course many other civs, which were not so powerful at a time, could use other countries technology (for example, XX age jet Indian air force would be made of Mirage fighters, just like French, as it is in reality) or mixed technology (for example, Spanish used German military tech before WW2 and US tech later; Germany in late XX age used it's own tanks but US planes). All civilizations at start would have only axemen :-) .However, such mod would be very interesting but hard to create, since certain civs (like USA) would have no representations in certain ages. Anyway, here I tried to list representations of civs in different times (sometimes they aren't very real actually, but it is the only way we can make it)...
Bysantine Empire - Ottoman Empire - Turkey
Arab Caliphate - Saudi Arabia
Spanish duchies - Spain
Russia - Soviet Union - Russia
China - People's Republic of China
Prussia - Germany - West Germany - Germany
Franks - France
Greek "polies" - Greece
Roman Empire - Western Roman Empire - Italian Kingdoms - Italy
Babylon - Iraq
Egypt (always so)
Persia - Iran
Dehli Sultanate - India
Japan (always so)
Mongol Empire - Great Khan's Lands - Mongolia
Vikings - Sweden - Norway/Sweden - Sweden
Carthage - Tunisia
Aztec Empire - Mexico
Zululand - South African Union - South African Republic
Korea - South Korea
England - United Kingdom
Celts - Ireland
Iroquis - Canada (probably the most doubtful, but since USA is another civ...)
USA - at start using the same tech as Iroquis, later changing to it's own (Industrial - Modern ages)

	24-02-2003 17:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I've been in about 50 MP games through the ancient era. The number of times the Expantionist civ(s) get free settlers and / or large numbers of techs from huts vastly out number the times they do not. Usually they get both. Of course, then they could have cows too. Or they could set up a settler pump.

hi ,

seconded ; just take a look at the americans , ... take a look at the starting place they get , .....

as for UU , there are civs that could have two or even three UU's , ..... try the editor and see , its all a matter of balance , .....


have a nice day