21-02-2003 00:36									#31
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But in that case I expected "better" from you, actually

	21-02-2003 00:38									#32
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You havent officially entered the US at an airport until you pass through immigration (who decide whether you can enter, visa or not).

	21-02-2003 00:43									#33
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH You havent officially entered the US at an airport until you pass through immigration (who decide whether you can enter, visa or not).

But you're still protected constitutionally, no? Like if they arrest you they still have to let you see a lawyer, tell you your rights, etc...

	21-02-2003 00:51									#34
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No, I dont think you are since you havent officially entered the country. If you are persona non grata (for any reason) you can be held in custody until you are sent out of the country. It prevents illegal immigrants from simply flying here, getting off the plane, then using delaying tactics such as claiming the right to a lawyer and court appearances etc.

	21-02-2003 00:58									#35
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When you're not in US soil how can US officials have any authority over you?

	21-02-2003 02:02									#36
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The same way an Air Marshall has authority en route, even over foreign territory. The same way the Coast Guard has jurisdiction in territorial waters. A Cuban or Haitian refugee picked up in the water has zero constitutional rights. They can't even make a claim for sanctuary or whatever.

	21-02-2003 02:33									#37
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basically, in airports, the authorities have rights, people dont

Last edited by MarkG on 21-02-2003 at 03:33

	21-02-2003 03:53									#38
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG basically, in airports, the authorities have rights, people dont

Only in airports?

	21-02-2003 04:13									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger But you're still protected constitutionally, no? Like if they arrest you they still have to let you see a lawyer, tell you your rights, etc...

They don't have to do any of that, unless they want to try you for a crime. Detention and deportation happen all the time without lawyers, etc., because you're not being tried for a crime, just kicked out.

If you want to enter the US, you have to answer their questions, so it's not a matter of having a right to a lawyer, it's a matter of cooperating, or getting kicked out of the country.

If you're detained pending an immigration inspection, it's not an arrest - it's simply part of the inspection process. I've gotten that crap a couple of times while commuting from Mιxico to the US, and although I haven't been handcuffed, I've been physically escorted by a couple of guards to a waiting area, where you empty your pockets, take your shoes and belt off, and are searched. Then you chill on a bench with your stuff in a little cubicle until they get around to asking whatever they want to ask, or until the computer confirms from your ID scan that you're not on the 10 most wanted list like they originally thought.

	21-02-2003 04:19									#40
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*cough slippery slope

	21-02-2003 04:41									#41
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quote: They don't have to do any of that, unless they want to try you for a crime. Detention and deportation happen all the time without lawyers, etc., because you're not being tried for a crime, just kicked out.

This is pretty much what I figured.

You happen to know if anything you say while being "detained" can be held against you in a court of law? And it would seem to me that there would have to be some sort of requirement for expediency on the part of the authorities; wither they let you go, put you back on a plane, or arrest you for a crime within 48 hours or something...

	21-02-2003 04:49									#42
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It doesn't matter, they won't bother wasting time with a court of law.

	21-02-2003 04:50									#43
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I think you are not legally on the soil of a country just by arriving on a plane. I think you are legally on the soil of a country after going through customs. I'm not too sure though.

This guy got lucky. I think if he were of Middle Eastern decent he would have been detained for maybe a month or two. That's what's going on in the US.

	21-02-2003 04:51									#44
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SSSHH!

	21-02-2003 05:21									#45
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November 17 - now there's a terrorist group I'm really scared of!!!

	21-02-2003 05:39									#46
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http://www.fbi.gov/

Email them. Tell then if they come to Poly they'll be banned, threads closed, anarchy and mayhem...

	21-02-2003 05:40									#47
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Should I be scared that, although I don't smoke any of it (really!), I mention pot at least once a day???

Should they have some 'reasonable suspiscion', my house could easily be entered and they could contort any **** into a connection to terrorists. "Oh, here's a shirt, it says it's made in...well...the first part of the country is rubbed out. It just says "stan." Stan must mean Afghanistan! Or Pakistan! Or Terroristan!" "There isn't a country called Terroristan." "Shut your mouth." (Agent applies more layers of duct tape.)

BTW, don't trust the government on following the Constitution. As John Locke (or one of those guys) said, rights never actually come from the government. And so far in 100% of the recent cases it's been true. Why would a government limit its own power?

	21-02-2003 08:39									#48
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The story did say that the Prop. Knew the N17 back in the 60s. My guess would be, they the FBI wanted to know if he the Prop. had any recent meeting with the N17 guy.

	21-02-2003 10:45									#49
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A bit difficult to do that since the N17 guy is in jail.


Knowing someone 40 years ago when you were both students at Paris and then that someone becoming a terrorist isn't enough evidence to convict you, I would think.

And certaintly isn't enough to be handcuffed and made to wait for 4 hours in what he said were unacceptable conditions.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 21-02-2003 at 10:56

	21-02-2003 11:23									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DuncanK This guy got lucky. I think if he were of Middle Eastern decent he would have been detained for maybe a month or two. That's what's going on in the US.

That guy (university proffessor) said that what happened to him is unacceptable not because he is not muslim, black, a philippino woman or unemployed. It was tragig because it can happen to anyone.
----
So you may want to think about that.

He also said he'd like to know the fate of all those people he left behind when he left that were in chains.


After they let him go he contacted the Greek consulate, he got immidiate diplomatic immunity, his american collegeues at the University of New York expressed their shock and sadness for their government violates its own values and he refused to meet the FBI again. He left the US with Greek diplomatic escort and the consulate let its American counterpart know what they were thinking of this screw up.

I doubt he'll be returning to the US any time soon,

and about what happened he said that it was either fascism or schizophrenia...

BTW, he was invited to take part in the University of New York gala about philosophy.

Now this whole treatment of him may seem like nothing to you, but where I come from this is a total violation of any even shred of civil rights and it IS prosecuted in a court of law.

Legal advisors told him that because of the "patriot act" he can't have an easy case, so I don't know if he will go ahead and press charges.

Also you might want to tell your FBI and your CIA to coordinate a bit more closely. They seemed really confused in their mess up.

Some of you might call me a eurowimp, but if you think that's "whimping" then you my dear friends are near the state of fascism.

	21-02-2003 12:14									#51
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Chill. All I said was that he was lucky to only be detained for a few hours when others are being detained for much longer because of their race.

	21-02-2003 12:33									#52
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That's for you Dunkan, with love


'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did nothing. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'

Pastor Niemφller

	21-02-2003 17:43									#53
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OK MarkG and paiktis, I'll play. First consider the extent at which people all over the world are watched by the secret services. It is well known that in Greece, if your family has a tradition in being communist or whatever, all family members have their own file with the State Security. Since these things circulate among the secret services, it is plausible that you may be detained in the USA because your grandfather fought in the Civil War.

Kostas Agapiou is one of the people arrested for participating in ELA. He was active against the junta, so the junta kept a file on him, which was reducted, as it seems, by one of the worst juntist cronies (can't remember his name). When the conservative government came after the junta, it kept the file and enlarged it with fresh material. They didn't care that they based their opinion of the "suspect" on stuff that may have been forged by the juntists: suspects are always suspects and they become "usual suspects", until some agancy has to find someone "guilty" really fast, and then all that stuff in the files turn into "evidence" and a case is constructed out of thin air. That's why until now most people accused for terrorism were eventually discharged: agents have a nasty habit of pulling their "evidence" and "witnesses" out of their ass (probably a leftover from the old days, when they didn't have to try much to convince a court).

As for the illegal detention: do you think that in Greece people don't get illegally detained, or when they are detained the police act like gentlemen? There are hundrends of cases of police brutality out there:

- A citizen (with origins form Albania, but still a full citizen) was arrested for not carrying his ID. He was not allowed to procure it, and was imprisoned for breaking the anti-immigration law. He was inprisoned for six months and they would not release him albeit all efforts from lawyers etc, until there was goverment intervention.

- A woman who was wanted ten years ago in Italy for helping a terrorist group, had been tried there and had been found innocent, has been arrested on the premise of the Interpol warrant that had been issued back then, of whose expiry the Greek authorities have never been officially informed. She is bound to be extradited to Italy and they claim that she is the one that has to prove the expiry of the warrant, which is a bureaucratic process and takes time. For the time being, she is behind bars.

From the 24 people arrested during the Athens F15 demo, 3 (2 men, 1 woman) are accused of felonies and one was sent to prison. These people have been arrested hours after the violent events and in places far from the US embassy, with trivial evidence.

The following stuff i fond in Athens Indymedia

quote: Τους κατηγορούν για σύσταση, συμμορία, διατάραξη, εξύβριση, διακεκριμένες φθορές και νόμο περί όπλων. Οι κατηγορίες εξειδικεύονται και κατά "ομάδες": σε 4 αποδίδεται ότι συμμετείχαν σε βιαιοπραγίες κατά της αστυνομίας στη Σταδίου και Καραγεώργη Σερβίας και προξένησαν φθορές, όπως στην Εθνική Τράπεζα (Σταδίου και Κολοκοτρώνη), και σε 5 ότι συμμετείχαν σε βιαιοπραγίες κατά της αστυνομίας έξω από την πρεσβεία των ΗΠΑ. Ο ένας από τους τρεις που διώκεται και για κακουργήματα κατηγορείται για βιαιοπραγίες κατά της αστυνομίας έξω από τη πρεσβεία της Μ. Βρετανίας. Κανείς σχεδόν από τους κατηγορούμενους δεν συνελήφθη στο χώρο και στο χρόνο όπου τελέσθηκαν τα αδικήματα για τα οποία κατηγορείται! Όλοι σχεδόν συνελήφθησαν αλλού πολύ αργότερα ή ...και νωρίτερα απ' όταν συνέβησαν αυτά για τα οποία κατηγορούνται! Για τους 4 που κατηγορούνται για την Σταδίου αναφέρεται -στην έκθεση σύλληψης- ότι συνελήφθησαν στο σταθμό του μετρό του Συντάγματος στις 2.15! ώρα που ακόμα δεν είχε συμβεί κανένα επεισόδιο... Αυτός που κατηγορείται για την Βρετανική πρεσβεία συνελήφθη στα νοσοκομείο του Ευαγγελισμού! ʼλλοι που κατηγορούνται για την αμερικάνικη πρεσβεία συνελήφθησαν στη Λ. Αλεξάνδρας! Ένας που συνελήφθη κατά την επέλαση των ΜΑΤ κατά διαδηλωτών μπροστά στο Πάρκο Ελευθερίας κατηγορείται με βάση μαρτυρία μπάτσου ότι δήθεν τον αναγνώρισε μέσα σε πλήθος ατόμων που εκτόξευαν αντικείμενα κατά των αστυνομικών. Τα μόνο "στοιχείο" που υπάρχει για όλους τους κατηγορούμενους είναι τέτοιες μαρτυρίες "αναγνώρισης" από μπάτσους.

quote: Λίγο πρίν τις τέσσερις το μεσημέρι του Σαββάτου και ενώ το συλλαλητήριο διαδραματιζόταν δυναμικά, εγώ μαζί με ένα φίλο μου έχοντας αποχωρήσει κάμποση ώρα απο τον χώρο της πορείας, συλλαμβανόμαστε απο μαλάκες της ασφάλειας για να μεταβούμε στα κεντρικά στην ΓΑΔΑ για δικαστική εξακρίβωση.Κι ενώ περιμέναμε τα μπατσικά που θα μας μετέφεραν, άλλα δύο παιδιά συλλαμβάνονται μαζί μας κι η παρέα των δύο γίνεται παρέα των τεσσάρων συλληφθέντων.Οι διαδικασίες είναι πάνω κάτω γνωστές σε όλους. Μας μετέφεραν στην ασφάλεια, μας ανέβασαν ως "νέους τρομοκράτες" στον έκτο και το "γλεντι" των μπάτσων εναντίων μας ξεκίνησε. Δεν πρόλαβε κανείς μας να βγάλει κουβέντα.Έτσι για το καλωσόρισμα εισπράξαμε όλοι μας απο μία κλωτσιά κι αφού μας γονάτισαν σαν σκλάβους απαιτώντας να κοιτάμε μόνο το πάτωμα (για να μην δούμε ποια είναι τα μουνόπανα που μας βαράνε) άρχισαν τις γνωστές ευγενικές κουβεντούλες τους....Βρισίδια,ταπεινωτικά σχόλια,απειλές,κομπλεξικές δηλώσεις που εκφράζουν την μαλάκυνση του εγκεφάλου τους κ.τ.λ.... Στον χώρο που μας είχαν έφερναν συνέχεια παιδιά τα οποία τα "υποδέχονταν" με τον γνωστό και προαναφερθέντα τρόπο σχηματίζοντας έτσι ένα "γκρουπάκι" απο 22 άτομα-προσαγωγές.Μας παρέταξαν όλους τον έναν δίπλα στον άλλο κατα μήκος ενός σκοτεινού μακρόστενου διαδρόμου όπου για 3 ώρες μας είχαν όλους με το κεφάλι στον τοίχο ενώ εκείνοι περιπολούσαν απο πίσω μας ρίχνοντας σε όλους μας τις απαραίτητες "ψιλές"-χοντρές και φυσικά συνεχίζοντας τον λεκτικό ψυχολογικό πόλεμο. Για τους 9 απο τους 22 η προσαγωγή παρέμεινε προσαγωγή. Για τους υπόλοιπους 13 όμως η προσαγωγή μετατράπηκε κατά "μαγικό" τρόπο σε κράτηση με κατηγορίες που βασίζονταν σε καταθέσεις-σκευωρίες των μπάτσων που συνέλαβαν τον καθένα απο εμάς. Τα παιδιά που παρέμειναν μέσα πέρασαν όλα απο εισαγγελέα.Σε 11 απαγγέλθηκαν κατηγορίες σε βαθμό πλημμελήματος ενώ στους άλλους 2 σε βαθμό κακουργήμτος και πλημμελήματος .Συνολικά 3 απο όλα τα παιδιά είναι ακόμα μέσα κι αυτό επειδή ζήτησαν παράταση για την ανάκρισή τους. Γι ακόμη μια φορά η αυθαιρεσία των μπάτσων,η κατάργηση των δικαιωμάτων του κρατουμένου, η κατάχρηση της εξουσίας τους ο άκρατος κομπλεξισμός τους και η χοιρινή υπόστασή τους επιβεβαιώθηκαν και σε όσους ζήσαμε όσα ζήσαμε κατα την διάρκεια της παραμονής μας στην ΓΑΔΑ αλλά και σε όσους συνέχισαν να βρίσκονται έξω στην πορεία. Μεταξύ των όσων αναφέρθηκαν για τα ψυχολογικά και σωματικά βασανιστήρια που υποστήκαμε στην ασφάλεια καλό θα ήταν να αναφέρουμε και κάτι κωλοδάχτυλα που χώσαν οι μπάτσοι σε κάτι παιδιά, τις σφαλιάρες στις 2 κοπέλες που είχαν συλληφθεί (δείγμα του "αντρισμού" τους) και το "prive" ξύλο που χώσαν σε κάτι παιδιά αφού πρώτα τα απομόνωσαν σε ξεχωριστό δωμάτιο. Έργα και συμπεριφορές των μπάτσων που μας ανάγουν στην εποχή διώξεως των αριστερών και της χούντας. Φασιστικές εκδηλώσεις κομπλεξισμού απο χοιρινές υπάρξεις.... ΚΟΥΡΑΓΙΟ ΣΤΑ ΠΑΙΔΙΑ ΠΟΥ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΑΚΟΜΑ ΜΕΣΑ ΥΓ:Oι κατηγορίες των παιδιών είναι διάφορες.Όλοι κατέθεσαν στον ανακριτή και αφέθηκαν ελεύθεροι με καθορισμένη δικάσιμο εκτός απο τους 3 που είναι ακόμα μέσα (συμπεριλαμβανομένης και της κοπέλας) οι οποίοι θα καταθέσουν όπως είπαμε την Τετάρτη.

quote: Μια από τις κατηγορίες εναντίον μιας κοπέλας που συνελλήφθη στην πορεία είναι και αυτή: "Στον παραπάνω τόπο και χρόνο, εκτός από τις περιπτώσεις της δυσφήμησης και συκοφαντικής δυσφήμησης, με πρόθεση προσέβαλες την τιμή άλλου με έργο χωρίς πρόκληση από τον παθόντα, συμμετείχες δε στην πράξη αυτή με περισσότερους από δυο. Συγκεκριμένα, χωρίς να προκληθείς από τους άνδρες της αστυνομικής δύναμης, προσέβαλες την τιμή τους, επιδεικνύοντας προκλητικά τα γεννητικά σου όργανα σε ένδειξη καταφρόνησης της ηθικής και κοινωνικής αξίας τους". Στην ασφάλεια, μεταξύ άλλων άνδρες της αστυνομίας την ανάγκασαν να γδυθεί μπροστά τους και "έπαιζαν" κουνώντας τα γκλομπ ανάμεσα στα πόδια της.

	21-02-2003 19:22									#54
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axi, i dont think the greek authorities ever setup such a plan(provide visa, wait on the arrival terminal, arrest, questioning, eventual release) though....

we're not talking about policy brutality, bureacratic nonsense or other "low level" issues.

please dont tell you're comparing in away the greek police and "secret" services with the fbi and the cia.... come on!

	21-02-2003 22:00									#55
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My stars! I just can't believe that in Greece, the cradle of democracy itself, such fascist festivities take place.

Pot calling the kettle black, eh paiktis ?

::shakes head::

This is hardly a problem unique to the USA, but of course, there's always that subset of the Euro population that just seems utterly convinced of their inherent superiority, and would rather point to examples of such shenanigans as these in the US, rather than looking at their own back yard....business as usual, then?

-=Vel=-

	21-02-2003 22:20									#56
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MarkG is right. Compared to the Americans, our own agencies are amateurs. But that doesn't stop them from destroying people's lives, though.

	21-02-2003 22:30									#57
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 That's for you Dunkan, with love 'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did nothing. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.' Pastor Niemφller

I'm familiar with this quote. I like it very much. However, they didn't take him away. They just detained him for a few hours. It had nothing to do with his race or ideology. In fact, he wasn't taken away because he wasn't middle eastern. So I don't think this quote is all that relevant.... Good quote though. We should all be raising more stink about the people who are actually taken away.

edit: changed stick to stink (hmmmm.... maybe stick is better)

	21-02-2003 23:19									#58
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crap, i got confused by the LACK of your antecedents, duncan!

Last edited by MRT144 on 21-02-2003 at 23:47

	21-02-2003 23:50									#59
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quote: But that doesn't stop them from destroying people's lives, though.

sad but true. part of an organisation created by man to do good is also doing some bad. wow!
you know, there are also some greek politicians that LIE!

quote: Compared to the Americans, our own agencies are amateurs.

so lets keep our focus to the professionals here, ok?

quote: Pot calling the kettle black, eh paiktis ?

hardly. greek services never cooperated(huh! ) to bring a foreigner to the country for the sole purpose of questioning him! they never even thought of doing such a thing(they couldnt think of such a thing. if some of it's members did, they didnt bother to attempt to suggest to do it)
so lets not comparate oranges with apples Vel

	22-02-2003 01:29									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 crap, i got confused by the LACK of your antecedents, duncan!

?


Still confused? About what?