20-02-2003 17:18									#1
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Question.

I know good ol' Napoleon Bonaparte went around Europe killing his enemies, but he also established the education system and gov't system that was so good parts of it are still used in France (and I imagine the areas he conquered too.)

Sure, he jumped around Europe fighting wars, but wasn't that what all the European nations did at the time anyway? Didn't he just efficiencize it? What's wrong with that?

IMVHO he's a lot better than most European rulers of, before (and since) the time.

	20-02-2003 17:24									#2
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What I come to think of upon hearing the name Napoleon, is the word shorty

	20-02-2003 17:27									#3
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I think of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

	20-02-2003 17:37									#4
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Actually the latest revision to history I've heard is that the guy was actually about regular height for his time period and nation. I can believe the nation part (Frenchies) but really, could that be normal? He's not very short, but he's very short for a military leader, I guess.

	20-02-2003 19:17									#5
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mrmitchell: I agree fully. If napoleon would win, It would be a good thing for europe, IMO.

	20-02-2003 19:24									#6
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Actually the latest revision to history I've heard is that the guy was actually about regular height for his time period and nation. I can believe the nation part (Frenchies) but really, could that be normal? He's not very short, but he's very short for a military leader, I guess.

This isn't "revision," this is documented truth. Napoleon stood 5'6" tall, which at the time was normal height for a European. However, the myth that he was abnormally short, IIRC, comes from a mistranslation of the measurement figures used at the time. Under the French system of measurement, he was 5'2" This equaled 168 centimeters, which is 5'6" under the current measurement system.

	20-02-2003 19:25									#7
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Not a very 'modern' historical analysis imho. That one individual, Napoleon, made important reforms doesn't mean that there wouldn't be any reforms in any other hypotetical scenario.

	20-02-2003 19:39									#8
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The rule of napoleon would benefit greatly places such as Spain and Russia. The Serf system that still existed in Russia (!!!) would be abolished. Germany wouldn't be united.
WWI, and WWII would not be fought.

	20-02-2003 20:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The rule of napoleon would benefit greatly places such as Spain . . .

The Spanish were so enamoured with Napolean that they invented the term "guerilla warfare" and frogwalked his imperial heinie back over the Pyranees.

	20-02-2003 20:49									#10
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The fact that the Spanish were a bunch of crazy nationalists has nothing to do with how good were his policies for them. The return of the old monarchy to power was just another contributing factor to Spain's retardness during the 19, and much of the 20th century.

	21-02-2003 05:03									#11
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Well, as for his height, it's not relevant.

What I'm saying is, most European kings/queens/etc. at the time just went around shifting armies and eating up the public budget. At least Napoleon gave France its best times. (No, really. Think of some other time where France was not the people running around making art, dissing the US (well, they do have some point somewhere), or being conquered by germany.)

	21-02-2003 05:09									#12
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Well, I agree with this, as well, if one's to judge napoleon on a historic criteria. What I say is that he would've done pretty well, by today's standards, as well.

	21-02-2003 05:15									#13
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Apparently, when he conquered Egypt, the Muslims nobles there offered to accept him as their ruler if he and his army converted to Islam. I wonder what would have happened if he'd taken up their offer...?

	21-02-2003 05:20									#14
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We could contemplate many things. Some of this contemplating would be a waste of time, Sandman.

	21-02-2003 05:21									#15
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All this depends on how well the French would have governed. If they would have governed well of course that would be great, but if they would have governed poorly the empire would have collapsed and it would be pretty much like the Roman empire after it collapsed.

	21-02-2003 05:35									#16
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All empires fall.

My claim is that this empire would allow the same rate of scientific advances, and perhaps even more, due to the development of areas such as Russia, Portugal, and Spain, whilst avoiding conflict in europe, for at least the 20th century.

	21-02-2003 05:44									#17
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Sometimes, abandonment of serfdom can be bad too ... in Dalmatia and other parts of Croatia (then under Habsburgs) Napoleon took, peasants were quick to drink away the land they got

also, going against the church in the traditionaly Catholic regions of north mediteranean, it had to backfire on the French

But Napoleon was very progressive. I read that they still use Code Civil in its original form somwhere in Canada

	21-02-2003 06:16									#18
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quote: The rule of napoleon would benefit greatly places such as Spain

That is true, because in Spain we have never been lucky with our kings.
But in Spain a foreign government (even the best foreign government) would NEVER be admitted.

	21-02-2003 06:18									#19
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Napolean built a lot of public infrastructure and also liberated the Jews of Europe, granting them full citizenship. He triggered off the Zionist movement by coming within a hair of granting Palestine to the Jews.

	21-02-2003 06:43									#20
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Azazel,

Some empires fall faster than others, it depends on how well they govern. I think any people will accept foreign government until that government does poorly.

	21-02-2003 07:37									#21
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So the consensus here is that he wasn't an evil little megalomaniac tinpot ruthless dictator.

Carry on with your discussion.

	22-02-2003 10:13									#22
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i"m just having al lot of fun with this. \but whoever said tha the truth was worth anything...

	22-02-2003 14:34									#23
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quote: Sometimes, abandonment of serfdom can be bad too ... in Dalmatia and other parts of Croatia (then under Habsburgs) Napoleon took, peasants were quick to drink away the land they got

I was talking about the abolition of serfdom, not the redestribution of the land. Besides, even that fact you've brought does not mean that the redestribution of land was a faulty idea. Maybe poorly implemented, but that is a different question.

quote: also, going against the church in the traditionaly Catholic regions of north mediteranean, it had to backfire on the French

He also wasn't culturally agressive enough sometimes. He could've taken over Germany, and made it a part of France, since Germans was very open to his ideas and reforms, and weren't yet bound by the nationalism of the late 19th century.

quote: But Napoleon was very progressive. I read that they still use Code Civil in its original form somwhere in Canada.

He was authoritarian, but his whole approach to government was groundbraking, rivalled only by... The American Revolution, at the time.

	22-02-2003 18:57									#24
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion But Napoleon was very progressive. I read that they still use Code Civil in its original form somwhere in Canada

Probably in Quebec. Louisiana law is based upon the French civil code.