12-03-2000 08:13									#1
	Supply Crawler? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I hate to sound like a idiot but what and how do you use a supply crawler? They seem like they are important but I just do not understand how to utilize them.

Thanks

	12-03-2000 08:30									#2
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Basically, supply crawlers are used in two ways -

1) Getting nutrients and stuff out of your base's control zones. Like if there is a nutrient square JUST outside your range, send a supply crawler to that square, and hit "o".

2) Make them at a base and send them to a base that is making a Secret Project. It'll shorten the time it takes to make. I frankly don't understand this. How does an infantry chassis with a supply holder help SPs?

	12-03-2000 09:43									#3
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How about:

1b) ferrying a resource from within city limits (where no city workers are presently situated)

3) rush building prototypes

4) transferring resources from one city to another

As far as the "how" of it goes, to capture a resource in an unused square just send your crawler to the place you want to get the resources from. You may be able to use a drop down menu, try under "action" but I always use the hot key. Just hit "o". Bingo. The extra resource will now flow to the city that the crawler is supported from.

Tip: for your science cities, it helps to build the crawlers in other cities and then move them to your science city and transfer ownership. Then go out and gather energy.

To rush build wonders or prototypes just send crawlers to the city doing the building. Once you get inside the city a menu will pop up.

To transfer resources from city A to city B, build a crawler at city A and then send it into city B. You'll get that menu popping up asking what you want to transfer.

	12-03-2000 12:36									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If your science-city is a coastal city, build sea crawlers (you'll have to use the workshop for that) and ferry nutrients like crazy to max your pop - and convert all your pops into librarians/empaths/transcendii for the science boost

	12-03-2000 18:35									#5
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Smitty: Build energy parks energy parks. The layout scheme is like this:

SSSSS
EEEEE
SSSSS
EEEEE
SSSSS

where E is an Echelon Mirror, and S is a solar collector. Up to 13 energy per square - sheesh!

LoD
LoD

	12-03-2000 21:31									#6
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TheSmitty,

First strategy is to build the Merchant Exchange at you HQ (or move your HQ). Or another base with little inefficiency. Then build the Maritime Control Center if you can, but it's not as important. Then build one of those thermal thingamabobs(for 1 extra sea evergy). Then build foil supply (and destroyer suply if it's feasable). build sea harnesses on all the special energy resourses out there. I guarantee that you will not have energy problems. You will need a lot of sea formers and navy to do it also, but it pays off very well.

LoD, why not just build borehole and put rivers on them?
[This message has been edited by Adam_Smith (edited March 12, 2000).]

	12-03-2000 23:49									#7
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That is what I used to think, but an energy park is better for several different reasons. A borehole with a river on it produces 7 energy base, while every solar panel will produce 10 base. An energy park makes a lot more sense because you need less bases to build crawlers, and it takes up less land. The only stipulation about an energy park is that it cant be used for anything else, you also must build cities around the solar panels before you crawler them in order for E mirrors to work. In my current game as Morgan it is year 160 and I would be getting 3 techs per turn except each base can only reach 1 tech. I have 2 science cities. My energy park is roughly the same size as my 25 base empire.. giving me about 1000 extra energy divided between the two main science cities. Blah blah.. it is so pathetic fighting the computer.. this is on transcend difficulty and the comp allows me to do this. Shooting for year 165 transcend..

	13-03-2000 00:09									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

There is one more trick to keep in mind and then a question.

The trick is to create a crawler with your best armor and trance. Very costly. However, if you use them to advance SP, they add, I believe, 60 minerals to the cost. But, do not! make these crawlers. Instead, upgrade conventional crawlers when you need to build an SP. The upgrade costs, depending on your industrial output, is about $140.

Now imagine you have a number of crawlers - oridinary crawlers - surrounding a base and you now get a new SP to build. Choose to build it in this base in turn 1 and also upgrade a sufficient number of crawlers so that in the NEXT turn, after adding these crawler's minerals, the SP will be built. If the SP requires 300 minerals, upgrade 4 crawlers. In the next turn, the base will add its own minerals. Assume for the moment that it adds the first 20 minerals to the SP. Now move the four uprgraded crawlers into the base for an additional 240 minerals. You now have 260. With base's twenty next turn, you need only 20 more minerals to complete the SP. You can do this by moving in one more, but conventional, crawler or by simply paying the $80 needed for the extra minerals.

The SP is built in two turns - for an out-of-pocket cost of $640. This is far cheaper and faster than using money alone to rush build.

(Of course, if you play either the Energists or Britney Spears, with $50 million in the bank, you simply pay the o$3500 out of pocket cost and build the SP in one turn.)

I also sometimes, later in the game, simply build or convert five to eight of these crawlers and station them at a base that has no current SP's (to avoid the Planet Buster problem). The next time I get an SP to build, I simply move these crawlers into the base to build the SP in one turn!

Now the question.

What techs does one research and in what order to get to Industrial Automation in the shortest path?

Ned

	13-03-2000 13:21									#10
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I like the "Parallel Ridge" energy park myself, being as how I invented it, but with the Thermocline Transducer any ocean shelf you can protect from stinkin' allies' colony pods will give you a good return with minimal investment.

On land if you want maximum energy per terraform Parallel Ridges is the way to go; if you want maximum energy per crawler the "classic" design of solid rows of solars in between solid rows of Echelons is better.

A word of caution: until patch 5 comes out don't build mag tubes on your energy park. I've had two energy parks cause repeatable, verifiable, bona-fide unhandled exception system crashes, and it seems to be related to mag tubes. Put drop pods on your crawlers instead.

Here is a link to the Parallel Ridge Energy Park thread.

	16-03-2000 18:04									#11
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If you take a look at the later posting you will see quite a few different suggestions on how to use crawlers. Everyone have their favourite tactics for crawlers and their uses are many.

So to answer your question:
Crawlers are one of the most important additions in smac vs civ. and you should really learn how to use em.
They don't need support and when you use them they collect resources for you. *yammy*

So learn to use them!

Chris

	16-03-2000 19:43									#12
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Thanks for all the valuable input. I started constructing and using them already.

Thanks,
TheSmitty

	25-03-2000 16:28									#13
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I sometimes make Supply Ships so I can transport resources from the sea to my coastal cities. It makes a huge difference! But they do get sunk by jets at times so you just have to protect them by using a AAA ship or something. Try it out!

	26-03-2000 10:30									#14
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This has prolly been said before, but supply stuff is good for transferring nutrients from your size 16 base that is producing enough nutriets to feed the Dopefish for ahwile to the base that needs to grow on the ocean.

	26-03-2000 01:02									#15
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A brief note on supply crawler foils.

Before you pick up fusion power, they cost 50 min @, but then the price drops to 30@, making them very attractive builds indeed. Don't forget when building your fusion supply skimships to equip them with RADAR for the same low price! That way, they do double duty as suppliers and sentries. Yeah, you will lose a few down the line, but they're cheap and you can make sure that each dead foil more than pays for itself if you are sitting there ready with your air/sea reprisal force and can blast the guy who just killed your foil. I'd trade a 30 min foil for a battle cruiser any day.

	26-03-2000 05:52									#16
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I'd trade a 40 mineral fusion chopper for half a dozen crawlers any day. Even at 90% damage, getting me 36 squares to fly to reach those crawlers, bagging half a dozen won't be too tough. If you're closer, and your warships aren't in port, I'd bag a few of them to boot.

	28-03-2000 03:03									#17
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Never remote mine resources unless you think that no one can find your crawler(for example, the poles are usually safe, or an isolated stetch of sea on a Huge map).

Any decent player(and the AI) will munch lone crawlers. Clean max armor AAA units can be used to "cover" a crawler, thus protecting it from anything but a determined air attack, but the required minerals for such a unit is usually not worth it.

Airbases and interceptors in the middle of a crawler field can stop those pesky choppers, but basically making ANY crawler field is asking for trouble. Usually I try mixing them in with bases to bring in rocky/road/mine, borehole, solar/high elevation and condensor/rainy/farm squares, or forests(minerals for pre-air/early game).

	28-03-2000 04:27									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm with you, Kaz,

While I admit that in principle things like energy parks can produce bonanza results, in actual play it seems more practical to just do as you suggest and have crawlers dotted all over your empire. That way the same military infrastructure in place to keep your bases safe will be on hand to handle threats against your crawlers.

As far as the comment before goes, re: chopper massacres of sea foils, that *is* a legitimate concern. Even the AI will sometimes do that. It seems to be the accepted wisdom to really scale back on crawler use in multiplay, but vs. the AI keeping your sea foils close enough for your interceptors to scramble usually works well enough to make sea foils worth their weight in kelp.

	28-03-2000 16:28									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

>>>I'd trade a 40 mineral fusion chopper for half a dozen crawlers any day. Even at 90% damage, getting me 36 squares to fly to reach those crawlers, bagging half a dozen won't be too tough. If you're closer, and your warships aren't in port, I'd bag a few of them to boot.<<<

Not me because I want to transport those resources and grow my bases for great benefits! The fusion chopper can only fight and thats it but the supplies can grow bases. A half a dozen supply ships can really pack alot of resources into a base growing it like you would not believe.

You can also use a SAM ship, which I have done at times, near the area to help protect the supplies and you can counter attack those choppers. It don't have to be an expensive ship either, just a basic SAM ship with 3 or 4 attack and no armor will do it. The best is with a carrier or nearby coastal base with jets set on alert and they can intercept before the choppers can even attack.

	28-03-2000 19:23									#20
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Prince,

I think that MTG's point was that he would be willing to sacrifice his chopper if that meant his lone chopper could take out maybe half a dozen sea supply foils--in that case he wouldn't care if you had a SAM ship ready to retaliate. On the other hand, interceptors can scramble during the enemy's turn, so that seems to be a better option for countering MTG's strategy. On the other other hand, he'd probably say that a good player will send a whole wave of suicide choppers, overwhelming your air defense capabilities.

	28-03-2000 21:51									#21
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It occurs to me that most people speak here towards use of AAA defense ships to prevent air incursions of you sea crawlers. Why are we forgetting the lowly Isle of Deep?

Let them come at me with gas. I fear you not with my trusty flotilla of worms acting as defense. The guaranteed 1 to 1 odds make any picks off attempts pretty costly for attackers (more so if you get the Neural Amp SP). By the by idea inspired by LOD's comments to MTG and how to defend base sites from maurading gas choppers as gas is never employed.

All the more reason to retry Lady Diedre as she can harvest nicely amounts of food from fungus and also allow that wounded Isle of Deep to heal completely thereby protecting that little foil harvestor.

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 28, 2000).]

	29-03-2000 00:31									#22
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Ogie,

I like your idea about using IODs and worms to protect trawlers and crawlers. My only problem with it has to do with expense. Against air units, you would need one IOD per trawler, which is very expensive both in initial minerals, as well as support. I think there is a bug in the program which assigns captured worms to cities, which significantly limits their value (unless you find them in enemy territory).

In addition, native life forms (except for locusts) are usually more difficult to deploy, as they cannot be given drop pods or speeder chassis etc.

I think the only truly effective defense for a trawler / crawler park is to ruthlessly eliminate any enemy forces within range. This requires forward bases and constant patrolling.

	29-03-2000 02:07									#23
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Sikander,

True cost of IoD and worms can be prohibitive. Hopefully though your getting freebies by trawling in fungus. At some point though you'll end up with diminishing returns and will require manufacture of your own.

As for support of these little beasties, I was thinking of the Gaians and harvesting nuts from the fungus (albeit only 2 at first but more as tech allows) placing that IoD in the fungus patch ensures no support and healing capability.

Whole scale support for a massive global kelp harvesting/tidal harvesting campaign would be VERY problematic. But one could envision a local tidal harness/kelp farm or better yet fungal patch (being Gaian) just off your coast allowing you to bring your IoD's back to base in the event choppers want to attack your costal cities. (A nice mental excersize at least). With a fungal reef around your bases you would create a nice no wake zone wherein your air/sea forces could respond appropriately.

This potential counter to air strikes might actually make conventional missiles of some more use as native life always loses to missile hits.

PS. Actual credit for native life defense against air power employing nerve gas goes to Tau Ceti in Land Based SAM thread not LOD. (Sorry Tau )

But LOD has come up with some winners in the past (can't think of any off hand but .... Just kidding )



[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 28, 2000).]

	29-03-2000 20:57									#24
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Ogie,

I thought of a similar Gaian approach (fungus belt), but never implemented it. I never seem to work the fungus. By the time I can really make it pay, the game is already won, and my terraforming investment too large. It does seem like a good idea though, especially since native life forms get combat bonuses in fungus.

	30-03-2000 00:41									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

A lot of this has to do with starting position, but one way to create a safe haven for sea harvesting is to terraform up sufficient land to create your own inland sea, and terraform/harvest every square in it....the energy benefits border on the obscene (especially if the crawlers are assigned to the base that has any of the lab or econ doubling SP's in it, thereby ensuring that the crawlers pay for themselves VERY quickly), and post fusion, sea-crawlers are cheap to build anyway...works especially well if you begin fairly far north or south, and can simply link up with the poles, and after your masses of formers have finished the basic terraforming, they can construct the land-link VERY rapidly (aided now and again by those spiffy-but-overpriced Tectonic missiles if you get the urge to)

	30-03-2000 01:22									#26
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Vel,

Not sure if you have read (or perhaps experienced first hand) some of the latest posts especially from Michael the Great regarding multiplayer games and his devastating use of Fusion Laser (at least)/Fusion reactor/Nerve Gas Choppers but he makes very compelling arguements on just how effective if not game imbalancing these terrors can be. By assigning these to suicide missions and keeping them aloft for 4 turns of range/destruction and then issuing a final self destruct command he has an effective range spanning vast distances and unprecedented carnage.

Inland sea is great from the standpoint of marauding sea vessels but falls short with the Kamikazee choppers. Any thoughts on prevention other than the obvious offense is the best defense?

	30-03-2000 11:05									#27
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True, but I can produce cheap interceptors in larger numbers then what the choppers can be built for. The choppers just can't go around and destroy at will, not when you have interceptors and especially if they are set on alert for air defense.

	30-03-2000 11:37									#28
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PrinceBimz: Damn it, I was just about to say that .

This idea is cheaper than the Mind Worm aproach (nothing personal, Tau Ceti ), and you spend less minerals than the attacker.

And 13x-1-12*2 Chopper/NJ costs 60 mins to build by default. Your "defence" chopper does not require neither the high lever weapon, nor a fusion reactor (I'm not counting the Nerve Gas Pods ability because it has the same cost as Air Superirority). Now, a <4>-1-10*1 Chopper/NJ costs only 30 mins, and that means you can build two of those for every unit the attacker sends into your territory. And, unlike your opponent, you actually get to recover your air fleet after the attack.


Ogie:

quote: [...]can't think of any off hand [...]

If you were not posting at OWO since April 1999, I can understand that.



LoD

	30-03-2000 18:38									#29
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LoD and the player otherwise (formerly?) known as PrinceBimz

Maybe I'm confused here. An interceptor on alert scrambling to provide air defense to a ground/sea unit will defend with weapon value say 4 for the cheapies you've mentioned. The Shard X chopper however should be using its attack value since it is the attacker not its armor value further it should be able to employ Nerve gas net effect is a 19.5 attack value against a lowly 4 defending unit before moral effects. Thats tatamount to simply throwing away your minerals for the interceptor.

Now if the case were reversed and your interceptor strikes the Shard X chopper after it has completed its moves then the Shard X defends with armor of 1 and is easy pickings for your cheap interceptors. However by that time at least one set of moves/carnage has been done. Additonally if local air power is present and recognized I'm sure a player of MTG's caliber would surely self destruct sooner and take out some more crawlers rather than let the interceptors respond.


LoD, By the by as I hope you recognized, I was just busting your chops . I recognize you from the old OWO forums. Was a long time lurker there and picked up many useful hints. Remember CEO Bernard? What ever happened to him? He was the first one to really expound on the virtues of Morgan and FM. I started to get bored once the forum became nothing but flame wars. Finally came here (and actually began posting) as the tone/atmosphere suits my tastes best.


[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 30, 2000).]

	30-03-2000 19:24									#30
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Defending the inland sea from air attacks:

If you develop it as per my last post, then it is entirely ringed with bases, and those bases (presumedly) have an array of defenses (we're talking about mid game here, at least, given the time it would take to finish basic terraforming of the starting landmass, complete said land bridge to the poles, and begin to terraform/harvest from the newly formed inland sea). Having said that, and given an active stance on defense (regular patrols, not to mention your own units that you're sending out toward your opponent's territory to cause problems), you will nearly always discover the marauding unit before he even reaches your shores, rendering the attack essentially a waste of time and minerals.

Any and all Builders out there, take heart and listen closely to the postings of the Momentum folk and follow their example....just remember two things:

First, a better infrastructure equals greater efficiency and economies of scale, meaning that, when you're ready to put together a war machine, you can do it more effectively and much more quickly than an empire with a less well developed infrastructure, and second, anything that works for a Momentum player will work even better for you (again, thanks to greater overall efficiencies).
-=Vel=-

PS: The secret (and most common reason Builders die) is to get good enough and fast enough to develop your infrastructure quickly....then spend the rest of the game building a war machine that the Momentum folk only WISH they could put together.
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited March 30, 2000).]