20-02-2003 23:26									#1
	Unlogic option in ALL CIVs !!! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

First of all: It is unlogic option in all civs i know (CIV1,2,3, freeciv).

I have submarine, 2nd side has trireme and has technology knowledge on very early level. There is peace between my nation and 2nd nation.

I have one question: Why when i attack this trireme i break peace? They DON`T know what attacked! They don`t have a sonar! They can think, that GODS attacked them! So submarines, cruise/nuclear missiles, bombers and fighters should can attack units of other sides without breaking peace. Of course, other sides have to don`t know neccesary advancements to detect what and who attacked them.

Also more options regarding fortresses are welcome: normal fortress (maintain unkeep 1gp) and stronghold (50% more defence, of course can attack naval units) - maintain - 3gp.

Anyway, freeciv rocks!

	15-03-2003 01:40									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You make a good point about using submarines, missiles and stealth airplanes against primatives. (I don't think this should apply to bombers and fighters).

But it does seem a fairly complicated idea for what I would expect to be a quite rare situation. How advanced do you have to be to understand/detect submarines?

(Does FreeCiv have the "Privateers" naval unit? i.e. Pirate ships that you can use to attack without triggering a war. The idea is similar...)

How often do you get this far ahead of the other players?

Regarding fortresses, I'm not up to speed on the freeciv settings at the moment - I'm been playing Civ III instead

	02-06-2003 15:14									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

So how about these submarines invisible for triremes? How about sonar thing (after researching sonar, you can see submarines with naval (ironclad or newer) and any air unit)?

How about new defence structures?
1) Palisade - 1gp/turn - 50% more defence (no advances needed)

2) Fort - 3gp/turn - 100% more defence (masonry needed).

3) Stronghold - 6gp/turn - 150% more defence, can attack naval units (power of attack same as bets ranged unit available for civilisation), (contruction and masonry needed)

4) Fortress - 10gp/turn - 200% more defence, can attack naval units (power of attack same as bets ranged unit available for civilisation), (contruction, masonry and mathematics needed)

5 - special) Legion Fort (75% defence, no unkeep, but legion must be in fort (needs acces to wood max one square range to build).

Settlers/Workers can upgrade fortresses, can also build Fortress w/o building e.g. palisade first.

Also ranged units (cannon and newer) sentry in 3) and 4) can bombard enemy land and sea units automatically (exept submarines), even not in players turn.

Last edited by Iwo on 03-06-2003 at 23:30

	02-06-2003 15:54									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

My impression is that people who build lots of city walls often are doing the wrong thing. You should rather be building units and get on the offensive. If you are unable to get on the offensive, you have probably already lost anyway.

That said, a city wall in a city on a hill defended by a mech inf is almost unassailable by ground troops before the Howitzer.

As to subs, they are also not much used. However, they are significantly upgraded in cvs (ie next release). I'd very much like to hear people's opinions on that upgrade.

	02-06-2003 17:03									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

About tese fortresses - these are only field fortresses, not for city. Building them in critical regions can help much, also attacking naval units is good (e.g. build some near Gibraltar )

Subs "are also not much used" because subs don`t have special abilities. Invisibility for non-sonar is good, more historically correct - also attacking pre-ironclad with sub should not make any sub`s hitpoints losess. Subs should be more attractive units IMO

	02-06-2003 17:09									#6
	Put an end to popups!

I forgot to add: building some fortresses near capital city is very good move - city can`t be sorrounded easily (sorrounding leads to resource lack in city, so city can`t maintain defence units and will be not defended after some turns...). Legion Fort (build by Legion unit) is IMHO historically correct...

I forgot to add anothe important thing: Fortresses should have hitpoints, attacking units inside them should cause damage of defence structure (0 hit points = ruins). Not maintained fortresses should also loose hitpoints.

	03-06-2003 03:18									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

About this unlogic option: IMHO before you reach radio if your unit, which is more than 2-3 fields from another is attacked, you shouldn't even know who attacked you (of course you should know it if you win). After the radio is reached, you should know everything about attacker (your unit communicates with others by radio). I has sens and it is another point for largepox (in smallpox you usually stop researches after steam engine and you don't heve radio technology). What do you think about it?

	03-06-2003 23:01									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think most players never build a single fortress. It has got to be one of the least used options in Freeciv.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Anyone? :-)

	03-06-2003 23:27									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Well, usually a mountain or forest square will do the job just as well, but not entirely. The watchtower ability of a fortress is nice to have with fog of war. Plus you can build a fortress right next to a well defended city to stack your troops in.

	03-06-2003 23:30									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Per I think most players never build a single fortress. It has got to be one of the least used options in Freeciv. I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Anyone? :-)

Thats why fortresses should be better! I`ll edit third post...

	13-06-2003 14:39									#11
	Re: Unlogic option in ALL CIVs !!! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Iwo First of all: It is unlogic option in all civs i know (CIV1,2,3, freeciv). I have one question: Why when i attack this trireme i break peace? They DON`T know what attacked! They don`t have a sonar! They can think, that GODS attacked them! Anyway, freeciv rocks!

The fact that they don't know how to build a submarine doesn't mean that they don't know how does it (and it's weapons) look Especially, when they are your allies.

And usually one turn lasts lot of years and they have enough time to get info who it was... maybe somebody survived, or some of your soldiers was not discreete enough

	13-06-2003 20:20									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

So attacking with submarine when at least one other civ has sub = no breaking peace
Same when there is no contact between attacker civ and looser civ.

When there is contact and only we have sub some % of chances should be for discovering who attacked.

Also subs should be invisible untill sonar.