21-02-2003 05:18									#1
	What exactly does the Sistine Chapel do? Increase Your PM Length

I see in the game's description that it "doubles the effect of cathedrals".

Fair enuff.

BUT, does that mean it :
1. doubles the Cathedral's production of happy faces?
2. doubles it's production of Culture points?
3. both?
4. doubles my pleasure?

I KNOW you guys know the answer to this one.

	21-02-2003 06:22									#2
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According to my own experience, the Sistine chapel does not increase the culture created by Cathedrals, only the number of happy faces.

	21-02-2003 06:28									#3
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here is some of the editor page and that is basically what we know:

I suppose it does #4 and #1 but I am not sure about #2

Attachment: sistine.jpg
This has been downloaded 346 time(s).

	21-02-2003 06:30									#4
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Now looking at the editor page it says doubles hapiness of. So it does NOT double culture.

	21-02-2003 06:44									#5
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Thanks guys

Ya, I see in the editor that there isn't even an option to "Double Culture Points", so it seems that it's not even possible anyways.

Too bad.. I'd definitely build an improvement/wonder that affected other buildings' culture points.

	21-02-2003 18:39									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Villain Thanks guys Ya, I see in the editor that there isn't even an option to "Double Culture Points", so it seems that it's not even possible anyways. Too bad.. I'd definitely build an improvement/wonder that affected other buildings' culture points.

Know what? This is an interesting idea... A wonder that could double other building's culture points. I don't know exactly how it could be implemented, though (cannot think of any real life examples...).

	21-02-2003 18:48									#7
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It would have to be something that encouraged tourism. I thought Disneyland but then thought again....

	21-02-2003 19:17									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Alexnm Know what? This is an interesting idea... A wonder that could double other building's culture points. I don't know exactly how it could be implemented, though (cannot think of any real life examples...).

Theres a big game balance issue there. if you already had a healthy culture output it would go through the roof

	21-02-2003 19:27									#9
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That's true. Regarding Cerberus IV's comment, if I want to model the probable 'tourism value' of a wonder, I usually attach the 50% tax/lux bonuses, or the +1 trade bonus, depending on just how popular I think it would be (potential Pilgrimage sites, like Mike's, would be in the latter category).

	23-02-2003 07:50									#10
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Maybe a wonder with cultural bonus to other improvements should give it to just one city, like the Newton`s or Copernicus`wonders. Then it would be sweet, but not outragingly powerful. A real time example would be something that could broadcast the already existing improvements to the world, making people want to go to that place. A few ideas?

1) The Midia
2) The Superbowl
3) The NBC, BBC, CNN...

Particular wonders could have that bonus, but just for one kind of improvement, to all cities; +1 or +2 at most. Like this:

1) The Spanish Soccer Championship (improves the colosseum cultural bonus only);
2) The Silicium valley (research labs only)

Just some thoughts...

	25-02-2003 00:42									#11
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hmmm... but they are all modern era wonders.
i would suggest something like the newspaper (the times) for industrial age (it's not the same as printing press. papers are new to the industrial age and at first the government (in britan) was so scared of them that it quickly put a huge paper tax on them, so only the rich could afford them.

maybe you could improve the printing press tech.
make it a tech and a wonder...

	25-02-2003 06:20									#12
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There was not a great midia work during ancient times. Perhaps some holy travels?

that's why all "midia wonders" should be at least late industrial.

	27-02-2003 00:32									#13
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I think that adding a wonder that effects strictly culture points is a great idea, especially since Culture is a winning condition. There are wonders set to specifically influence each of the other conditions, so why not culture as well?

My suggestion is for a wonder that behaves much like Newton's; this new wonder should double the culture points created by a city. If this isn't enticing enough, then there could possibly be the added effect of adding .25% of your civ's culture to its total (example: If your civ has 10000 total culture points, it gets 25 more added to the total after that turn, resulting in ending the turn with 10025 culture points), sort of like a cultural Wall Street.

The Louvre or Smithsonian or other such institution could be used to represent this wonder. It is an institution centered in one city (the city that would be recieve double culture points), but it of such an immense value that it inspires the entire nation (reflected in the reisidual culture points) This should be a mid-industrial/late industrial wonder, coming a la Shakespeare through a dead end tech. Could help those who are behind in culure catch up or those who are ahead cement their victory. Any thoughts on this?

	27-02-2003 02:45									#14
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quote: Originally posted by pedrojedi (...)1) The Spanish Soccer Championship (improves the colosseum cultural bonus only); (...)

I think have the Colosseum (and in Indus./ Modren times be some sadium like the Skydome, or Mavin Garneds, for exmaples) as the wonder (and does the same think) and the inprovment of Colosseum turn in to the Aimpathreat. (Yes... I can't spell )

	27-02-2003 19:07									#15
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I understand the Internet wonder in PTW has sort of a double the culture effect, since it puts a research lab in every city on the continent, with a huge boost in culture production. In fact so big, that it probably should be defined as a bug.

	28-02-2003 09:38									#16
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The Internet seems to have been designed specifically to be such a huge boost. As is recognised by so many on the forums and no doubt by the Firaxis groups, by the time you get the Internet the game is more or less decided. They put in the Internet with all civ's characteristics to allow anyone the chance to have their GA where they missed it before. Chances are that if you haven't had your GA by then you are behind enough that it will act as a way to attempt to improve your lot before the inevitable game end. I haven't built it once in my games yet, but it seems to have been designed so powerful intentionally.

As for the culture improving WoW, remember that in the Double Your Pleasure mod in PtW, the Pyramids add an Obelisk (culture value 1 ) to all your cities. If a WoW can not have the characteristics of increasing culture for a certain improvement, then a reasonably close idea would be to add a Wonder that adds an improvement to all cities that only produces culture, like the Obelisk. The only issue is that you needn't build anything beyond the WoW to get this bonus to culture in your cities.

	28-02-2003 16:01									#17
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt The Internet seems to have been designed specifically to be such a huge boost. As is recognised by so many on the forums and no doubt by the Firaxis groups, by the time you get the Internet the game is more or less decided. They put in the Internet with all civ's characteristics to allow anyone the chance to have their GA where they missed it before. Chances are that if you haven't had your GA by then you are behind enough that it will act as a way to attempt to improve your lot before the inevitable game end. I haven't built it once in my games yet, but it seems to have been designed so powerful intentionally. As for the culture improving WoW, remember that in the Double Your Pleasure mod in PtW, the Pyramids add an Obelisk (culture value 1 ) to all your cities. If a WoW can not have the characteristics of increasing culture for a certain improvement, then a reasonably close idea would be to add a Wonder that adds an improvement to all cities that only produces culture, like the Obelisk. The only issue is that you needn't build anything beyond the WoW to get this bonus to culture in your cities.

I tried the DyP mod and in my opinion it is crap. Like most other mods it hugely favours the human player. The Internet wonder follows that same path, and is a much too powerful wonder for single player games. But that is only my opinion, of course.

	28-02-2003 19:19									#18
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I don't think internet is so much powerful just because it appears late in the game... And, in my case, the game is almost always concluded. And I usually go for the upper tech road in Modern Ages... I like preserving nature!

And yes, the Colosseum could be a GW, and the usual colosseum could become Stadium, Theatre or Amphitheatre.

	28-02-2003 22:36									#19
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The interenet actually saved my ass in my last game. I was on monarch difficulty as the Germans. I was on a medium sized continent with the Russians, wiped them out early, but was isolated for a while. When I contacted the other civs, I was way behind in techs and the Koreans had about half of a huge continent. I stopped researching, started buying techs and trading resources/luxuries for tech. I finally almost caught up by the modern age.

The other civs (India, Korea, and Persia) had switched to Communism, but were still ahead in techs. They all took the upper branch to get to synthetic fibers, and were 2 to 3 techs ahead of me. They began to refuse to trade techs with me, even for 6000-7000 gold. I decided to take the bottom route and get to miniturization. Luckily I had a city with an Iron Works and built the internet in about 8 turns. I got the Golden age that I couldn't get wih my Panzers (attacking the other civs would have been disasterous) This boost allowed me to finish my imperial infrastructure, discover genetics (which I traded, along with miniturization for Nuclear power, Ecology and Recycling), allowed me to out research my huge rivals, and finally, allowed me to pull out an amazing space race victory 2 turns before the Persians. There is no way that I could have won without that golden age.

	28-02-2003 23:39									#20
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A very good example of welcame Internet GW.

	01-03-2003 02:34									#21
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quote: Originally posted by pedrojedi I don't think internet is so much powerful just because it appears late in the game... And, in my case, the game is almost always concluded. And I usually go for the upper tech road in Modern Ages... I like preserving nature! And yes, the Colosseum could be a GW, and the usual colosseum could become Stadium, Theatre or Amphitheatre.

I agree that the Internet wonder really comes late in the game, but in can save your game, as Wycoff said. But I don't think it's too powerful. You can try to get your GA in the modern ages, but personally, I prefer a medieval one, in which I either conquer a couple of neighbors or pull away with a tech lead...

As for the colosseum, there are many colosseums around the world, not only in Rome. I agree though that almost all of them are located in the former Roman Empire... But making it a GW? I don't think so...

--Kon--

	01-03-2003 06:42									#22
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Well, the largest and most known of all is "the" Rome Colosseum. It is wildly known throughout the world. Others are just "regular colosseums" or "regular stadiums".

	01-03-2003 12:55									#23
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I think calling them stadiums (stadia?) is more appropriate.

	01-03-2003 16:08									#24
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quote: (stadia?)

Right!

Maybe firaxis should add also Backside Basketball Court, and make it also help diminish corruption. Maybe 10%? Or perhaps a minor wonder, such as Social Inclusion Program (-10% corruption/waste in all cities).

	01-03-2003 21:57									#25
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what about Maracana?

	01-03-2003 22:36									#26
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Famous over here. I never heard any gringo or europeu asking about it.

	02-03-2003 02:21									#27
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Macarana?

	02-03-2003 04:47									#28
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See? Mad Monk seems not to know what is Maracana.

Simply, it is the soccer stadium with the largest public capacity of the world, and probably of all sports as well. Originally built during the 1950's, it had capacity for more than 200.000 souls to cheer and applause our talented national team. Lots of reformulations and reforming during early 1990's gave it lower capacity but a more desirable structure security and better seats.

It's not the best of the world (which are now almost all in the Far East), but is impressive. It is a nice reference spot in a plane, and can be easily seen up in the Cristo Redentor's hill.

PS: Apolyton is culture.