21-02-2003 11:39									#1
	Build Plans Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I've done some number crunching in my Spreadsheet and here is the first cut:

We build 5 Warriors, then 1 settler. The First settler will be built 1 turn after we have gotten to size 3 (turn 22 - 2950BC). This will Require 1 turn of Lux slider, or 1 Unit Garrisoned, to keep the city from Civil Disorder. The Warriors will Be built in the following years:
1) Turn 6 - 3750BC
2) Turn 10 - 3550BC
3) Turn 12 - 3450BC
4) Turn 14 - 3350BC
5) Turn 16 - 3250BC

After we build our first Settler, we start building a Granary (or a granary prebuild). Hopefully, we will have made contact with another Nation and have aquired Pottery. By the time we get the Granary built, we should have completed the Bronze Working Tech and can build Numidian Mercs (NM's). We will then be able to produce a NM/Settler Combo every 10 turns, varying from size 2-4.

From what I can currently see, we will need the 2 of the 3 Bonus Grassland tiles to be mined (tiles #6 and 13). I'll be posting my WF chart sometime later, but tile #6 is just NW of the Game, while Tile #13 is where the Hut Currently is.

I'm looking at some variations, but we can have 4 NM/Settler pairs (not counting the first settler) built by turn 77.

E_T

	21-02-2003 11:42									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Couple of things to keep in mind:

Granary == a must before settler, most likely.

We have incense to the north in 10 turns.

	21-02-2003 11:49									#3
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Granary = only worth building before the first settler if you have enough free land to make it worthwhile. If you have limited space, a granary will handicap your early growth while others are REXing to cut you off.

	21-02-2003 12:11									#4
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The Worker assignments that I would like to see:

Turn 1: Road Game (#5)
Turn 5: move to #13 (Hut) - Pop Hut
Turn 6: Road #13
Turn 8: Mine #13
Turn 11: Boarders Expand, City now size 2 - Move to #6 (NW of Game), WF set to #'s 5 & 13
Turn 12: Road #6
Turn 14: Mine #6
Turn 17: move to #2 (NE of the city)
Turn 18: Road #2
Turn 20: move to #9 (Incense)
Turn 21: City now Size 3 - Road #9
Turn 22: Settler built - back to size 1
Turn 23: Incense is connected

After that, we shall see what needs to be done, but I'l like to see tile #15 (SW of the Game) also roaded & Mined before they go to other things.

E_T

	21-02-2003 12:14									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Granary = only worth building before the first settler if you have enough free land to make it worthwhile. If you have limited space, a granary will handicap your early growth while others are REXing to cut you off.

Cutting the time to build settlers in half is an advantage in most every case, unless you're in the middle of a jungle...

	21-02-2003 12:14									#6
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As I have stated, this is a first cut, but we shall see. But I'm more of an impression of getting our second city started, before getting that Granary started, that way they will help pay for the 2 extra units (5 warriors & 1 Worker = 6) as we only get 4 per city for free right now.

E_T

	21-02-2003 12:17									#7
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If we can get the Granary out quick (chopping the trees comes to mind), then it will be a huge boost. We'll see though, this isn't my area of expertise.

	21-02-2003 12:26									#8
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Regarding granaries... there was a fascinating thread in the strategy forum a while back that I recommend checking out.

	21-02-2003 12:58									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Trip If we can get the Granary out quick (chopping the trees comes to mind), then it will be a huge boost. We'll see though, this isn't my area of expertise.

One thing that we have to keep in mind is, that we will require getting Pottery, either from a Hut or from possible tech trades. As we are currently working on BW, we won't be able to get Pottery on our own for a while after it's needed. So part of this is based on the guess that we will get Pottery before a prebuild has been completed, but most likely, after the first settler is built.

I'll be looking at some other options in the next day or so, as we will most likely have some time before then...

E_T

	21-02-2003 13:05									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by E_T One thing that we have to keep in mind is, that we will require getting Pottery, either from a Hut or from possible tech trades. As we are currently working on BW, we won't be able to get Pottery on our own for a while after it's needed. So part of this is based on the guess that we will get Pottery before a prebuild has been completed, but most likely, after the first settler is built.

I have mentioned in the First Technologies thread that we would need to get Pottery before finishing the Granary, not before starting it - we can use a prebuild (Pyramids, if there is nothing better). As I believe we would be able to get BW & Pottery through our own research in 17+10/11=27/28 turns, I consider it highly unlikely we would be able to complete a Granary earlier, is that correct?

	21-02-2003 13:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack I have mentioned in the First Technologies thread that we would need to get Pottery before finishing the Granary, not before starting it - we can use a prebuild (Pyramids, if there is nothing better). As I believe we would be able to get BW & Pottery through our own research in 17+10/11=27/28 turns, I consider it highly unlikely we would be able to complete a Granary earlier, is that correct?

More than likely, it (the Granary) would be completed after that (earliest is turn 31, latest is Turn 38), and depending on the ultimate plan...

E_T

	21-02-2003 13:12									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by vondrack I have mentioned in the First Technologies thread that we would need to get Pottery before finishing the Granary, not before starting it - we can use a prebuild (Pyramids, if there is nothing better). As I believe we would be able to get BW & Pottery through our own research in 17+10/11=27/28 turns, I consider it highly unlikely we would be able to complete a Granary earlier, is that correct?

Just a minor note: you can't prebuild Pyramids if we don't yet have Pottery!

	21-02-2003 13:13									#13
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quote: Originally posted by E_T More than likely, it would be completed after that (earliest is turn 31, latest is Turn 38), and depending on the ultimate plan...

If that is the case, I see no reason to switch to Pottery unless we want something different from BW+Pottery as our first two techs. Giving up on those three beakers from the first turn really seems to me now like wasting them unnecessarily.

	21-02-2003 13:26									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Just a minor note: you can't prebuild Pyramids if we don't yet have Pottery!

Trip, we can start building the Pyramids now, as we have the Tech that it needs, which is Masonry.

E_T

	21-02-2003 13:36									#15
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Eh? Ol' Masonry?

Cripes, I get those two techs confused all the time...

	21-02-2003 14:09									#16
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Well in Civ 2 pottery was required to build the pyramids

	21-02-2003 14:20									#17
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Probably why I'm mixing it up so often...

	21-02-2003 22:25									#18
	Work Force Grid & Example Increase Your PM Length

This is the Work Force Grid that we have been using in the SPDG and the RP team.

The Work Force Grid

The inner ring is Tiles 1 to 8.
the outer ring is tiles 9 to 20.

And Example:


In this Example, the WorkForce (WF) is 2-6-9-13-15

E_T

	21-02-2003 22:32									#19
	Worker Times Chart Full PM-box? Change here!

This chart shows the time to completion of Worker Tasks for various things. It also shows how fast something is accomplished using multiple workers. I have both Industrious and non-Industrious worker times (any slaves that we aquire, would be non-indusrtious).



From the chart, let's say you want to have 3 workers (Industrious) mine a mountain, it would take 3 turns to complete, if you had 4 try to do it, it would still take the same time of 3 turns.

E_T

	21-02-2003 22:39									#20
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Isn't 5 Warriors in a row kind of excessive???

I know that we are in a shield high - food low position, but still.

I'm thinking that if we get Pottery from the goody hut, (or else by any other means prior to having a 3rd Warrior) that the 4th & 5th Warriors should be canceled and the Granery built instead.

	21-02-2003 22:51									#21
	Sample of my spreadsheet Support Apolyton

This is a sample of my spread sheet, there is much more to the right of what you see. The Flags columns are for the following:
Connected to Capitol, Courthouse and WLKD for corruption/waste calculations; and Granary Flag, for the foodbox calculations.

The foodbox calculations take into count the size of the city, the WF tile usage and any possible specialist (and the number). It automatically increases the food box size, for the size of the city (town, city, metro).

The Corruption waste calculations depend on the set corruption values, taken from a corruption calculator spreadsheet. These are factored into the trade and Shield outputs, depending on the Flag settings.

One of the things that is not shown, is the Food, Shield & Trade values for each tile. These can be changed over time, as you make you worker plans. These values are combined and then calculated to show the Sheild and Trade outputs and the food box calculations. Just to give you an idea, these other columns are about 3 times as many as you see here...

On the Accumilated shield column, you will notice some colored boxes, these take into account that the city size increases before the shield output is calculated, so the difference is added in by hand and color flagged, so that I know that I had changed it and I might need to change it back, depending on WF and other variables.

Here's the first Chart. I won't be posting these too much, as they take up some FTP space...



These are some of the tools that I'll be using to help us keep on top.

E_T

	22-02-2003 03:47									#22
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Nice stuff E_T, one of the many reasons I voted for you. Goodluck.

	22-02-2003 03:51									#23
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This reminds me of the spreadsheets that you used to do when you were Deputy FAM and later DM.

	22-02-2003 05:16									#24
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The things that I had learned then has lead me to this form of the sheet. I would have probibly done something similar to this before, but I didn't have time with all of the things going on in the SPDG. Of cource, it did allow me to know what I wanted the sheet to do and then how to manipulate it

Like In about an hour or 2, I was able to make a new senaerio and have the Game Forest cut and it will allow us to bounce from size 3 to 5, instead of size 2 to 4. This gives us more trade and a faster NM/Settler pair build time, too.

E_T

	22-02-2003 05:42									#25
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Nice spreadsheet, but planning that far in the future is just not practical, unless we are a good distance from any other civ and/or on an island. One other thing, building that many units before building our second city while running at 100% science means that we would run out of money before settling our second city. I am all for building that many warriors to exlore etc., but we will have to lower science rate temporarily if we do.

	22-02-2003 05:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Nice spreadsheet, but planning that far in the future is just not practical, unless we are a good distance from any other civ and/or on an island. One other thing, building that many units before building our second city while running at 100% science means that we would run out of money before settling our second city. I am all for building that many warriors to exlore etc., but we will have to lower science rate temporarily if we do.

Unless we stumble on a goody hut with gold. Like you said, don't look to far ahaead, we'll have to worry about the gold and adjusting the sliders when the time comes.

	23-02-2003 07:16									#27
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Some of the current plans are only different my just a couple of things, but we'll look at this last plan. This incorporates what BFM found out about the Border Expansion and takes into account some of the other "default" worker placements when the city expands.

Turn 2 (3900BC - next turn): WF #2 (same as last turn); 7 shields left, 1 SPT, 2 Food Surplus
Turn 4: Change WF to #5; 5 sheilds left, 3 SPT, 2 Food surplus.
Turn 5: Road at #5 built, Move Worker to #13 (poping Hut).
Turn 6: 1st Warrior built, start on 2nd Warrior; Keep WF the same until City Grows; Have Worker Road #13 (it doesn't matter if it's roaded or mined first, as it won't be used until both are done).
Turn 8: #13 Road built, start mining.
Turn 10: 2nd Warror built, Start on 3rd Warrior.
Turn 11: City Grows, Borders Expand; Set WF to 5-13, 4 Shields done, 5 SPT, 2 Food Surplus; #13 Mine built, move back to #5 and start chopping.
Turn 13: 3rd Warrior built, start building Granary.
Turn 16: Forrest Cut - 10 Sheilds to the Granary build, Start Mining #5; WF still 5-13; 25 shields, 3 SPT, 3 Food Surplus.
Turn 19: #5 Mine built, move to #2; now producing 4 SPT.
Turn 20: City Grows, WF to 5-6-13, 39 Shields, 5 SPT, 3 Food surplus; Start roading #2.
Turn 22: #2 Road built, move to #9.
Turn 23: Start roading #9.
Turn 25: #9 road built, INCENSE IS CONNECTED, move to #6; Granary built, start on settler.
Turn 26: City Grows to size 4, WF to 5-6-13-15, 6 shields, 6 SPT, 3 Food surplus; Start roading #6 (this could have the mine built first, but it will have no effect on the next 2 builds, so it's better to get the increased trade sooner).
Turn 28: #6 Road built, start mining.
Turn 30: Settler built, start on Warrior; City at size 3 (grew to size 5 before the settler was built, same time), WF to 5-6-13, 0 Shields, 5 SPT, 3 Food surplus.
Turn 31: #6 mine built, move to #15; now 6 SPT.
Turn 32: Start roading #15 (same as #6, a mine first won't effect the next built time); Warrior built, start on Num Merc.
Turn 33: City Grows to size 4, WF to 5-6-13-15, 7 sheilds, 7 SPT, 3 Food surplus.
Turn 34: #15 road built, start mining.
Turn 36: City grows to size 5, WF to 2-5-6-13-15, 28 Shields, 7 SPT, 3 Food Surplus. requires either 2 garrison or lux slider, this turn only
Turn 37: #15 Mine built, move to #4; Num Merc built, Settler next; Set WF to 4-5-6-13-15, 10 SPT, 2 Food surplus.
Turn 38: Start roading #4.
Turn 40: Settler built, Num Merc next; City at size 3, WF to 5-6-13, 6 SPT, 3 Food surplus.
Turn 41: City grows to size 4, WF to 5-6-13-15, 8 Shields, 8 SPT, 3 Food surplus. Move to #2 and start mining.
Turn 44: City grows to size 5 and the Num Merc is built, no need for an extra garison. #2 mine built and it can go to other tasks.

At this point, it's 7 to 8 turns cycle time for building a NM/settler pair. The City will bounce from size 3 to size 5.

The reason that #2 was mined is that when the city grows to size 5, the default is to place the WF on #2. in the next several cycles, it's better to use a WF of 2-5-6-13-15 and sometimes 4-5-6-13-15. So thereby, that tile is mined. The worker can go to other taskes, as it won;t be needed at the Capitol for a while, as it will be REXing for a while. There are 2 other times that the city will need a second garrison (or Lux slider), before the NM is built, but it doens't happen to much sooner.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 23-02-2003 at 10:25

	23-02-2003 09:08									#28
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As a newbie to a DG of this size, it is amazing the level of detail and professionalism some of you, like E_T, have shown.

Like Viktor Lazlo said in Casablanca,
"now I know our side will win!"

	23-02-2003 10:31									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

E_T, again good work. There are two things that I'm not happy about with your queue however.

1. Connecting the Incense so early is unecessary. By doing so, we would delay the time another tile would be improved, one which will be worked by our second city (since, assuming close spacing, our capital and second city will be sharing tiles). The 1 or 2 turns we'll have unhappiness (if that, I'm not certain how many Content citizens you get on Regent), we can always use the Luxury slider.

2. I'm not sure why, but the queue I posted recently in the 'Next Turn Discussion' thread is about 1 turn ahead of yours. Please check it out and tell me what you think. The major difference is that I leave a laborer on a Forest tile twice (3 times, counting the Governor auto-assign), in order to speed up a Settler. This ends up not slowing down growth at all, since the 3-Food tile wastes 2 Food when filling up a Granary-sized Food box.


Dominae

	23-02-2003 11:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The 1 or 2 turns we'll have unhappiness (if that, I'm not certain how many Content citizens you get on Regent), we can always use the Luxury slider.

Two contents born at Regent, same as Monarch (the only difference between these two is the research and combat-vs-barbs handicap).