21-02-2003 21:34									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Well, if a spy was wearing an enemy uniform, wouldn't he be shot as well?

Aahhhhhh-ha!
I answered that already.
Must be in uniform, and here it is again, of "his side".

	21-02-2003 21:37									#32
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I consider a spy to be an 'intelligence soldier'. Hence if a country is found to be actively spying on me, I would consider it an act of war (unless they were stronger than me ). As such, those captured, and found guilty of spying are prisoners of war. The only option I see is permanent exile. The guy wants to sell secrets to Iraq, huh? Let's send him there, see how he likes living in a barracks with Saddam...

Sounds pretty fair to me. We'll see how far Saddam is willing to trust him, or any other country, for that matter.

	21-02-2003 22:33									#33
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Trajanus, That's how I think about it. But this death thing would be only when actual war is happening. If someone is aiding enemy at the time of war, he is to be considered as enemy too in this spying thing. If spy is willingfully giving information, he has become enemy combatant. These are worse than enemies, these are aiding the enemy to kill own people. Almost the worst crime in the world. It does not matter how big or small the information is, since every kind of information to the enemy is what they need. They have intel too, they can figure out things from things normal people would consider meaningless. These kind of traitors deserve nothing more than to die without honor.

	21-02-2003 22:52									#34
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Deportation to Canada.

	21-02-2003 23:07									#35
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prison... for a long time

	21-02-2003 23:14									#36
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Deportation to Canada.

What, so he can get free healthcare and a high standard of living? Pffft.

	21-02-2003 23:17									#37
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First off, he wasn't in uniform. He was a retired master sergeant. The death penalty is applicable for treason, but neither China nor Libya are declared enemies of the US (though Libya is on the U.S.'s official list of rogue states). I'm not sure this meets the treason test.

How does one get $116,000 worth of credit card debt?

	21-02-2003 23:23									#38
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porn, and plasma screens?

	21-02-2003 23:32									#39
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As is says in the article (paraphrasing) the penalty will be dependent on what the secrets are that he stole. It might have just been satellite pictures of Libyan goats (which would still be classified as TS because of he source). Hardly worth killing him over in that case.

	21-02-2003 23:46									#40
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I would say 10 to 20. if guilty.

	22-02-2003 00:06									#41
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Life in prison.

	22-02-2003 00:59									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara First off, he wasn't in uniform. He was a retired master sergeant.

Then he is a civilian, if the information he's pedalling
is not stolen, then he is not a traitor.

	22-02-2003 02:39									#43
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The Us ahs not executed a spy since the Rosenbergs, no? Most spies get prision time. POllard got what? 40-50 years? And it look like now, since all the camapigns to get him out have pettered out, he might actually serve it.

And as for the treason charge" what's the constitutionality of it? Thje War power's act may allow a president to send troops somewhere, but can someone be accused of treason as long as the Congress has not declared war?

	22-02-2003 04:38									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus I remember that incident with the American spy plane was caught (or crashed) down on Chinese soil... I don't remember it that well but i do think the crew was handed over to the Americans... according to the "shooit the traitor" bastards, the crew should have been shot, right?

Check your sources. The plane was in international waters when a Chinese MIg tried to play hot dog with it. The Americans would get right up against the international boundry and then record radio transmitions and the Chinese would try to scare them away buy playing chicken and pretending to ram the opposing plane. The problem was the Chinese pilot got to close and his little plane ended up crashing into the much larger American plane. According to the flight recorder the Americans didn't move and kept flying on the planned course while the Chinaman kept trying to get super close and scare them off.

	22-02-2003 05:00									#45
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I'm not so sure this guy did anything morally wrong, other than ordinary theft.

So, my punishment would be the same for any ordinary thief, plus allowing the military and federal government to refuse to give him any sort of clearances in the future if they so choose.

	22-02-2003 05:08									#46
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Ordinary theft? How about ordinary theft that just happens to put thousands of lives at risk.

	22-02-2003 05:16									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yes, we all know treason is only acceptable if done whilst waving the Stars 'n' Bars...

That would presume that there was any legal obligation to that entity known as the United States of America after states asserted their sovereign rights to secede from that entity. Now your Copperhead types, you can have all those you want, but we weren't traitors. And we weren't the ones that led the Federal government to violate it's trust with the states under the Constitution.

As for this idiot's sentence, I'm not sure what Saddam Hussein's mailing address or email address would be, but absent more compelling evidence of actual contact with foreign agents or transfer of information, it would seem to me that the proper offenses were attempted espionage and gathering of classified national defense information.

Basic points are:

(1) No American citizen or agent was harmed;

(2) The US was not in a state of armed conflict with any of the parties to which sensitive information was allegedly offered.

(3) There was no apparent actual contact with a foreign agent;

(4) There was no apparent exchance of information or cash.


15 years or so would be appropriate. If either of the first two conditions was met, I'd say death was appropriate, if neither of the first two, but either of the second two, then life without parole. None of these four conditions occured from what I've read.

GePap:

Treason can occur absent war, since the definition of an "enemy of the United States" is broader than just being a belligerent party against the US in actual armed conflict. The tough nut to crack is that the Constitution requires an overt act of support or assistance with at least two witnesses, so that's why the charge is so rarely brought.

	22-02-2003 05:22									#48
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quote: Ordinary theft? How about ordinary theft that just happens to put thousands of lives at risk.

No, the US government is putting thousands of lives at risk by immorally stationing troops around the world in order to threaten other nations. It isn't wrong for a person to help another nation defend themselves against those troops. Stealing, though, is wrong, so you can punish theft, but I don't agree with punishing the transfer of information, especially information that will help stop aggression.

MtG,

I would argue that the phrase "enemy of the US" implies the meaning of "enemy of the average American", because the individual is very paramount in the United States.

	22-02-2003 05:50									#49
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The concept of an "average American" doesn't exist in the Constitution.

The definition of "the United States," is expressed clearly, though, and one of the primary rules of construction of legal language is to not use the same term to mean different things.

Also, many states themselves historically had treason statutes for treason against the state government. (cf Dorr's rebellion)

	23-02-2003 01:44									#50
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand The penalty for treason is death. Spying is treason.

Yup. And if it were up to me, it'd be by some horrible, mongoose infested way.

	23-02-2003 02:24									#51
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I don't consider treason a legitimate crime (i.e. an action that warrants legal prosecution). Acting against a state is never inherently immoral. If he's to be proseucted, he should be prosecuted under other statutes, for instance aiding mass-murderers. Just as quite a few of our country's leaders should be.

That said, I think he should get no more than 10 years.

	23-02-2003 10:18									#52
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quote: The concept of an "average American" doesn't exist in the Constitution. The definition of "the United States," is expressed clearly, though, and one of the primary rules of construction of legal language is to not use the same term to mean different things.

The United States were created, and exist, to protect individual rights. Therefore, the individual is paramount when the phrase "the United States" is used. The individual is implied in both the phrase itself AND the definition.