22-02-2003 02:54									#1
	Apolyton Spirit Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As our Vice Minister for War (I just gave myself that title!), I have something to say about... fighting.

We gotta little problem on our hands, and I want to nip it in the bud.

It's not specifically the discussions of the last 24 hours, and the possible (horrible!!) ramifications thereof, but in catching up on the differences of opinion and some of the decisions that have been made, I realized I had to dig back a little deeper into some of the threads here in the private forum in order to get a full picture of our little community.

So here's the problem, as I see it:

Due to the fact a number of the early threads regarding the Intersite game were in the Demogame forum, a lot of early work was done by the current Demogame participants (and thanks for the efforts, guys... I didn;t realize how much time had been spent).

So Demogamers were constituency number one. And there's a cultural impact from that... by nature, it only included players who have either actively participated in that game, or just lurked as others managed it, such as it is. I'll come back to that point, but the biggest issue I see is that there has been a lot time spent on governance issues.

As there was some crossover with PTW DG teams (some more than others), some of those people showed up, as well as whoever still visits the 'poly homepage, and some others. Call that constituency number two... a bit late to the party, but I get the sense that they were able to catch up and integrate into this community fairly quickly. Also, when so much time has already been put into structuring the team, why rock the boat?

OK, dateline Sunday, 2/16/03: I and a few others SOMEHOW find out about this forum, and make it a point to invite in a bunch of people and generally raise awareness in some of the other forums. This includes several of the PTW DG teams, the Strat forum, and the PTW forum.

Constituency number three.

Aye, and here's the rub.

While ConOne has its own style and internal relationships, each of the PTW DG teams of course has its own style and internal relationships... and I'll guess that the PTW DG teams have had less formal governance (which is a KEY issue here, I think).

This all goes double for Gathering Storm, as many of us are Strat regulars and buddies, and have also spent about a year hashing out games issues, getting to know each others styles, etc. (this is pretty powerful stuff... among others, and in no special order, I consider Sir Ralph, Arrian, alexman, Catt, etc., to be some of my really good friends). And not to disrespect anyone, but we also know each others capabilities, and they are pretty high. And while not everyone goes to the Strat forum, and therefore doesn;t know who each of us are, I dunno, I guess we (or at least I) pretty much expect our voices to be heard and listened to very closely... for instance, I know the timing was tough, and that was part of the problem, but I'm pretty sure that not one single Strat guy would have started this game the way that we did.

So whaddya we got here? Issues: governance, style, relationships, and capabilities... and probably a few more.

I gotta run, and I'll be back to post more in a few hours, but I have some further ideas on what we can do... PLEASE, no major decisions of any kind for a little while, until we get things hashed out.

Preview:

All of these issues are addressable.

Our success will come from Apolyton Spirit.

	22-02-2003 03:11									#2
	Re: Apolyton Spirit Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Theseus As our Vice Minister for War (I just gave myself that title!), I have something to say about... fighting.

I didn't know that the Consuls had declared Trip and you the Minister and Vice-Minister respectively.

	22-02-2003 03:23									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm lost. Is there a major amount of fighting going on beneath the surface that I've missed?

Yes, there are different groups or "cliques" on our team and those groups haven't gelled yet. That'll take time. Time for all of us to witness and come to realize how each person on the team can contribute.

But for the time being, each of us needs to make more of an effort to present to the group our talents and insights.

--Togas

	22-02-2003 04:14									#4
	Remove this text

Sorry, bigfree1, you are of course entirely correct... I am not the Vice Minister of anything, I was getting way ahead of myself. Sincere apologies to all.

Togas, there has not been much fighting to date, but in the last 24-48 hours I've seen enough discord that I thought it worth saying something, hopefully helping to avert anything that could harm Team Apolyton going forward.

	22-02-2003 04:47									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I have seen some heated feelings. But I think it's only natural; a lot of different people are being thrust together to try to work as a team. Also, the debates have been over some pretty critical things: how to start out in the early game, the most important part of Civ3, and more importantly, how we are going to run things around here; how everything is going to work.

Once we get past the first turns and the first slew of amendments and constitutional disagreements, I think things will settle down. Judging by the SPDG, there will always be a large group - sometimes a majority, sometimes not - unhappy with one or more aspects of the law; but once we get through the first ten turns or so and things develop a routine, I don't think there will be so many conflicts. Certainly not daily ones, as it seems to me to be now.

	22-02-2003 05:01									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

As probably the person rocking the boat most in terms of disagreeing with how the government is organized (at least now that Sir Ralph is looking for another team), I want to make it clear that I am not trying to get in the way of strategy, gameplay, or anything else along those lines, nor do I hold anything against anyone personally. There are some things about the design of the government as a structure that I think could be better, and I may propose an amendment or two over the next few days to address them. But I'd like to think we can debate such issues without taking things personally or letting them interfere with our efforts to actually play the game. And I emphasize once more that my structural concerns are in fact a matter of basic structure completely independent of who is occupying the office of consuls at present, not a sign of mistrust toward the particular individuals who currently occupy the office.

Nathan

	22-02-2003 05:19									#7
	Remove this text

Let me cut to the chase:

I don;t really want to be part of a team that would, for whatever reason and in whatever fashion, end up pushing Sir Ralph out. He has been one of the most consistent, most consistently helpful, most calm, and most creative players in the Strat forum, for well over a year. He has been a voice of reason and balance in GS, and has handled his governance responsibilities wisely and with diligence.

But I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to play the Intersite game, and kick all the other sites' collective asses.

I would hope that the whole of Team Apolyton would want us Strat forum guys here and contributing as much as possible. That's not to say that I don;t think EVERYONE will contribute, and that there aren't an awful lot of great players who haven't developed the dreaded "Strat posting addiction," but I wanna make sure that Team 'poly has ALL of the best involved... and that damn well includes Sir Ralph.

So I'm going to do two things:

1. Everything possible to get SR to stay.

2. Try to address why (at least what I think) this has even come to pass, and make sure that we address team fucntioning in a way to optimize ourselves going forward.

So, first, if I can implore the group, everyone who can should post here, or post in another forum, or send a PM to Sir Ralph, whatever: STICK AROUND, BUD!! We want you here! What if we have to do an Early Archer Rush?

Second, Apolyton Spirit:

Following up on my themes in the opening post, I think there are three things we have to address:

1. Governance:

I think, and I think I'm speaking for many of the PTW DG folks, that our current governance structure is a little too, hmmm, structured. Meaning, the Consuls are too powerful, and the mechanism for change is a little too, hmmm, harsh. You know what? I don;t ever want to say that I have no confidence in a fellow Apolytoner. I want us to act like a team... one for all and all for one. And also, I haven;t really been understanding the whole concept of Minister selection... why have a poll if the Consuls can ignore it?

I don't want us to get dragged down into a constitutional debate, though, especially given that we would be re-hashing a lot of stuff that the Demogame folks have already dealt with.

So, in even considering changes to governance, what's more MUCH more important?

Ah...

2. Relationships:

We don;t know each other. What kind of team is that? Sure, some Demogame guys know each other, and the PTW DG teams know each other, and some of the Strat guys not on GS also know each other... but fer Chrissakes, I don;t know Ninot from a hole in the wall, and although I've seen Trip, and BH, and Vondrack, and BFM, and many others around, I don't know what you're good at, what you're into, hell, even the style with which you communicate (that's REALLY scary when you think about it). But I CAN tell, for instance, that if nbarclay (Nathan) says build a granary, I wanna build a f-cking granary... there's a relationship and history there, where I know he is an absolute expert on that issue.

( I gotta throw this in for the Strat guys: And if I say build a mixed-unit Army... )

I am going to start an "Introductions" thread... I look forward to getting to know you.

But getting to know each other is going to take a little time. So what can we do while that's happening?

Ah... (redux):

3. Apolyton Spirit:

I am really impassioned about this. Other than commentary on mixed-unit Armies, and, oh yeah, recently on a city placement methodology called "Ralphing" (wonder where the name came from? get it now?), the greatest value that I think I've added in the General and Strat forums is an attitude and an etiquette. Anybody abandon CFC at some point? Sick of Lt. Whatever and cracker blasting the sh-t out of new players? We have been resolute in being polite and helpful. And not just with new players either... I absolutely went off on a guy last week for being arrogant and condescending (as well as being a simpleton).

Well, beyond Introductions, I think we all gotta take a step back, take a deep breath, and remember that we are Apolyton. We are one team. We have a culture here, and an etiquette, that distinguishes us from the others... not only are we the best, but act with respect.

What does that mean in practice?

Aside from the tenor of our posts, I think it actually circles back to governance, as much as anything.

Yes, in this type of game, our leaders / players have to have broad executive powers to PLAY THE TURNS. And yes, our leaders have spent and will spend a lot of time and effort on this damn thing, and that gives them a certain right, or privilege, to make decisions.

Other than that though?

I believe that the Spirit of Apolyton requires, REQUIRES, that our leaders reach out to the team, AT ALL TIMES, to make sure that not only is democracy being upheld, but the the team feels that way.

I am not indicting anyone... but the fact of the matter is that the recent discord was enough to turn off Sir Ralph a little bit. I know that he had had an interest in playing team games with one of the other sites anyway, to develop new relationships, learn from others, etc., and getting turned off here, again, just a little bit, was enough for him to say: WTF, I'll play with another team.

But here's my point: Apolyton Spirit says to me at least, "ARE YOU F-CKING KIDDING??!! NOT HAVE SIR RALPH? AND SOME OTHER TEAM OF BASTARDS GETS HIM INSTEAD? WRONG, MAN, THAT'S JUST ALL WRONG..."

Let's fix this.

Sorry for the rant, guys. In the Minister of Defense poll thread, I said look at my signature... now look at my tagline.

Apolyton Spirit!!

Last edited by Theseus on 22-02-2003 at 06:45