22-02-2003 03:02									#1
	SSTs - any future? Got spare money?

The Concordes and Russia's Tupolev Tu-144 were developed in the late 60's and promised to be the next big thing in aviation. We all now know their massive faults - terrible reliability, even worse fuel efficiency, loud, limited capacity, etc. Hell, the Russians haven't even flown theirs in over 20 years. Boeing flirted with the idea in the early 70's as well, and ultimately scrapped the idea.

The current trend seems to be to larger capacity, traditional airliners (Boeing 747-400's, Airbus A380) for long-hault flights. However, with the newest developments in engine technology like supercruise, will SSTs become a viable option? I could easily see them in service on trans-Pacific flights, like LA/San Fran/Vancouver - Hong Kong/Tokyo/Shanghai. I also think people would gladly pay more to shave some time off those rediculous flights.

Whadya think?

	22-02-2003 03:08									#2
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The "profit" for airlines comes from the business traveler. Right now, most businesses are cutting back on travel, and cutting back on allowing their people to fly first class. Some companies are even asking their employees to TURN IN THEIR FREQUENT FLYER MILES...
The Concorde proved that not many people are willing to pay the big bucks to save a few hours. In today's economy, it would be even less.

Both Airbus and Boeing have done the research for an SST... but the airlines have shown NO INTEREST, and probably won't for a very long time. Without firm commitments from the airlines, nothing is going to happen.

	22-02-2003 03:25									#3
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I do not see much future for jet engined SSTs. Not when a magnetic or other non fueled assisted lauch is available, I might see a subortial rocket transport for very long jauls. but they will have to develope a method for getting a good chunck of its lift off power from a ground facility so that it use less fuel and does not have to lift the means of initial thrust.

	22-02-2003 03:28									#4
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I realise that there currently isn't the demand, but I'm wondering how far down the road, if ever, that demand may arise.

I think the Concorde's problems are that it's priced to the extreme and cuts time off an already acceptable length flight. As I said, I think the real possibilities exist trans-Pacific, not trans-Atlantic.

If development/procurement costs can be brought down such that we're not talking 10 grand for a ticket (a decent seating capacity would also help), I could see a demand emerging. Granted, those costs will only go down with enough production volume, so it becomes a viscious circle....

	22-02-2003 03:33									#5
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Again... the airlines now drive the "development" end of new planes. Unless the airlines demand it, and make FIRM committements... Boeing and Airbus can't afford to even start production. And looking at the current state of Airline finances... and knowing that it's going to take a long time for many to get back on their feet again...

No way

	22-02-2003 03:34									#6
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New SSTs are DOA.

	22-02-2003 03:57									#7
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I think we've discovered that until things get a lot cheaper, 700 kph is "fast enough"

	22-02-2003 04:18									#8
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I don't think that jetliners go 700mph.

	22-02-2003 04:35									#9
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Without checking it out, what has to be done to normal aircraft to take them above mach 1? The reason I ask is that if the engines were powerful enough, the same plance could be disigned to fly under mach 1 over land, but over mach 1 over the ocean. The problem I see in cost is that the SST today is a special purpose plane.

	22-02-2003 04:36									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I don't think that jetliners go 700mph.

Neither do I.

	22-02-2003 04:50									#11
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I am sorry, I assumed that all NAers use miles. Mea Culpa.

	22-02-2003 06:15									#12
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Boeing is going for more efficiency to sell to the Jet Blues and Southwests of the world--it's all about operating costs. Boeing ditched their new oversized jets, although I think Airbus is still going on theirs. Perhaps Boeing started their oversized just so Airbus would piss away a hunk of money on theirs.

	22-02-2003 15:42									#13
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See how on many occasions technology goes back and may eventually be lost? 30 years ago, man went to the moon and flew across the Atlantic with mach2 speed. Next year the Concorde may be grounded.

Nah, there are no guts nowdays. Back in the 60's, nations were engaged in a virtual pissing contest and they performed technological wonders. Now all they care about is $$.

	22-02-2003 16:35									#14
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Yes, I believe there is demand for such a plane for the cross pacific flights. If my seat were to cost an extra $200 to get there in 7 or 8 hours instead of 12, I'd pay it. It would put Australia/NZ on the tourism map, making it possible for people to see these places on a two week vacation.

Maybe not right now with the economy, war etc, but in a couple of years when things are better, God willing.

	22-02-2003 16:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Without checking it out, what has to be done to normal aircraft to take them above mach 1? The reason I ask is that if the engines were powerful enough, the same plance could be disigned to fly under mach 1 over land, but over mach 1 over the ocean. The problem I see in cost is that the SST today is a special purpose plane.

If you tried to get a normal aircraft to supersonic speeds, it would literally shake apart and fall into pieces. You have to have a special purpose plane to survive the tremendous shocks and stresses associated with moving faster than the speed of sound. Remember that, as little as 50 years ago, many reputable scientists believed that it was literally impossible to go faster than the speed of sound. It is quite hard to do, and lots of good test pilots died as we learned to make it happen.

	22-02-2003 19:02									#16
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The American SST died in the 70s when Congress declined to provide the funding for research & developement. There were grave concerns that repeated flights at the heights flown by an SST would damage the atmosphere [ozone layer ].

	22-02-2003 22:09									#17
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I prefer BTTs.

	22-02-2003 22:13									#18
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I prefer BLTs.


Hell, the military doesn't even use SSTs.

	22-02-2003 22:40									#19
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quote: Originally posted by axi See how on many occasions technology goes back and may eventually be lost? 30 years ago, man went to the moon and flew across the Atlantic with mach2 speed. Next year the Concorde may be grounded. Nah, there are no guts nowdays. Back in the 60's, nations were engaged in a virtual pissing contest and they performed technological wonders. Now all they care about is $$.

After every period of tech development there follows a period of exploitation of the new tech. During this period market based forces determine the "useful" techs. EX: Jet travel proved highly useful in connecting continents in hours. Supersonic travel only marginally improved this tech at to high a cost and therefore market forces deemed in not "useful".

Once a demand for increased efficiency outweighs the cost factors you will see nations getting back into "pissing contests" over tech development. Then you will see a period where they seem only concerned with exploitation of the tech. This is the market based process.

quote: Again... the airlines now drive the "development" end of new planes. Unless the airlines demand it, and make FIRM committements

Ming hits the nail on the head.

	22-02-2003 22:44									#20
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I prefer T & A

	23-02-2003 09:24									#21
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I reckon that the Internet will eventually replace much of the business travel with video conferences and the like. What that means is airlines will have to restructure their operations to make $ from pleasure travelers.

	23-02-2003 10:34									#22
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Many business tried the teleconferenceing thing many years ago. We even had a video conference room set up in our offices and all of our major clients offices. After about 6 months, the rooms went unused. It became obvious that it was no subsititue for face to face meetings. While some meetings can be done that way, and business trying to keep costs down... Face to face will still be needed. How do you explain to a client that paying you millions of dollars that you can't send somebody to meet with them

	23-02-2003 21:34									#23
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It used to be bloody expensive running on ISDN (64K or 128K) - laughablely slow now. I am sure some face-to-face meetings will be needed, but most will be elliminated. Give it time, Ming, give it time.

	23-02-2003 22:23									#24
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I don't agree... When somebody is paying you tons of money, you send people to them. Because if you don't, they will find a company that does. Many "service" companies depend on "relationships" to keep contracts... and it's tough to develope/maintain relationships long distance.

	23-02-2003 22:41									#25
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Currently Boeing researched on "Sonic Cruiser", a high speed sub-sonic plane which could cut down transatlantic passage by 2 hours and would cost less to operate than typical Boeing 767-200. Although no one was interested, because in afret sep 11 crisis few airlines wants to buy new planes and expand their fleets.