22-02-2003 14:12									#91
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quote: DinoD- The Old Testament must always be taken with a grain of salt. In it, they claim that God instructs people to kill all men, women and children in cities they conquer.

That's not true. And yes, I know better.

So, monkspider, why would you try to stop the soldier, just because there is a child?

	22-02-2003 19:35									#92
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I didn't notice the child in the picture. Under these circumstances, I would make a desperate attempt to knock the gun out of the soldier's hands.

I said you are standing where the camera is, which means he's getting ready to shoot the woman and child in the picture as you watch. You're about 25 feet away, he's getting ready to pull the trigger. You have 2-3 seconds to act. I gave you a specific situation, so I want a specific answer.

You're not going to be able to do anything to stop him in such a situation except point your gun and him and fire. If you miss, he's likely going to point his gun at you and shoot you, and then go and shoot the woman and child anyway when he's done killing you.

The only chance to save the people in this situation is to shoot the soldier. You may not have to kill him, just wound him enough so he won't shoot. But it's the only option, monkie. Otherwise you will let him kill these people, and you will spend the rest of your life tormented over the fact you let a Nazi murder two innocent people when you could have done something about it.

It's nice to be idealistic, but your ideals are not practical. Situations where violence in self-defense is the only option are real, and it's an insult to the many people who have unwillingly had to defend themselves in such a way to suggest they just didn't try hard enough to be peaceful. Violent situations happen quickly, and there will be situations where there is no time or alternative to do anything else. Police officers encounter them all the time, and if they second-guessed the use of force when it was necessary, a lot of innocent people would end up dead.

Total pacifism only would work in a world without evil, and that is not a world we live in or will live in anytime soon. Fantasy is nice, but in the real world, people will have to use force to defend themselves or others who are innocent against those who seem to harm them.

	22-02-2003 19:45									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Ethics are about what things should be not what things are. There is nothing detached from reality in ethics. don't confuse morality with ethics.

First of all, I see no difference with "morality" and "ethics" and I use them interchangably. Secondly, even if I use your definition, Floyd did use "moral compass" in his message. Can't you read?

	22-02-2003 19:48									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel A hero is one that makes a courageous and a ethically positive act, and since if one would refuse the draft he would be denied the possibility to make an act that is more ethically positive than dodging the draft, the thing above is not necessary. Unless you think that resisting the draft is the most moral thing possible.

You are generalising here. Not all wars are morally justifed. If a person gets drafted into an unjust war, how would this person be more courageous and makes an "ethically positive act?"

	22-02-2003 19:53									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I said you are standing where the camera is, which means he's getting ready to shoot the woman and child in the picture as you watch.

I can't be 100% certain that the soldier (can't tell if that's an SS or a Nazi from the picture) is going to shoot the woman and the kid. He could be aiming for something beyond the picture to the right.

	22-02-2003 20:01									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I can't be 100% certain that the soldier (can't tell if that's an SS or a Nazi from the picture) is going to shoot the woman and the kid. He could be aiming for something beyond the picture to the right.

That's a stretch. After all, the woman is clutching her child in fear, turned away from the soldier.

It is indeed an SS soldier (Not sure why you distinguish "SS" and "Nazi," since one had to be a Nazi to join the SS...). This was snapped a moment before he shot the woman. He was executing a Jewish mother and her child (this was taken in the Ukraine, I believe).

That's why I posted the pic, as it was a real situation where this soldier shot an innocent mother and child. Reality gets in the way of fluffy, happy ideals.

	22-02-2003 20:07									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Gandhi was a hero, and he chose not to fight.

No, he got other people to fight for him, like all politicans and generals do.

Gandi was just an ambitous lawyer, who saw that the
British could be shamed out of India, by a civilzed rebellion, rather that the violent rebellions that failed
in the past.

Gandi?

The real heroes are the people not in the history books.

	22-02-2003 23:17									#98
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quote: First of all, I see no difference with "morality" and "ethics" and I use them interchangably. Secondly, even if I use your definition, Floyd did use "moral compass" in his message. Can't you read?

Morality and ethics are different things. I could dig up a website if you insist.

quote: You are generalising here. Not all wars are morally justifed. If a person gets drafted into an unjust war, how would this person be more courageous and makes an "ethically positive act?"

I never said that all wars are just. I wanted to counter Floyd's point that dodging the draft is always the most moral thing to do in a situation when you're drafted, even the war is justified, and moral.

	23-02-2003 02:41									#99
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The guy workin' saturday so you spoilered whiners
got working telephones.

IS/IT sucks

Should have been a bricklayer.

	23-02-2003 03:03									#100
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So, who are the real heroes? Those who fight wars, or those who refuse to fight?

Those who know when to fight, when not to, and act with that wisdom.

	23-02-2003 03:06									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz The real heroes are the people not in the history books.

That's a rather large generalization. Are you saying that if anyone is mentioned in a history book for a heroic act, they are thusly unheroic?

And let me guess...everything that happens is part of a government conspiracy?

	23-02-2003 03:13									#102
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My vote is obvious (those who refuse, naturally).

Just curious why you think you need to be validated at ACS.
Someone with courage of conviction, shouldn't care less.

	23-02-2003 04:00									#103
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Those who fight to defend their homes from invaders are heros.
Those who refuse to fight for invaders are heros.
Simple.
Interesting discussion on violence & the bible, btw.

	23-02-2003 10:09									#104
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monkspider,

I think Boris got you on the picture question, and I think DinoDoc got you on the "Jesus was a pacifist" question.

Sprayber,

quote: This is the most self centered thread in poly history. Someone is trying to work their way into being a hero by intellectial discussion. Of course, made possible on the backs of all those people that have chosen, for whatever reason, to stop thinking entirely about themselves. A hero is someone who has everything to lose and still chooses to risk death because there is a greater good to be considered. And no, heroes aren't just soldiers.

I don't care if you think I'm a hero or not. I'm not dodging a draft, although if I was, yes, I'd consider myself to be a hero. Your definition of heroism is OK, but my definition would be more along the lines of the following: "One who does what is morally right without concern for the consequences to himself or others."

	23-02-2003 10:32									#105
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Well, since I'm ignored...
Have you gone here http://www.objector.org/ , or anywhere; or are you counting on just making your thoughts known here will suffice?
The way you have this thread worded could be viewed as, at a minimum, insulting.
Just so you know, if you didn't know already; which I'm sure you probably did.

	23-02-2003 10:39									#106
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If a war is unjust, refusing the fight, particularly if there are legal constraints, is heroic.

	23-02-2003 10:42									#107
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quote: Well, since I'm ignored...

You are?

quote: Have you gone here http://www.objector.org/ , or anywhere;

No.

quote: or are you counting on just making your thoughts known here will suffice?

Suffice in what way? Suffice in the government's eyes? I don't really care what the government thinks. I'm not gonna fight, period, and I don't really care about the government.

quote: The way you have this thread worded could be viewed as, at a minimum, insulting. Just so you know, if you didn't know already; which I'm sure you probably did.

In what way is this thread insulting? If one takes this thread as an insult, then perhaps that person should take a good look at what they are doing and wonder if maybe they should be doing something else.

	23-02-2003 10:47									#108
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It does matter what the government thinks, David.
You can say it doesn't all the way to jail, in a worst case scenario.
I'm just trying to help you do something in conjunction with your beliefs, so don't get all pissy with me.
If you're going to do something, do it right.
That's all I'm saying.

	23-02-2003 10:56									#109
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quote: If you're going to do something, do it right.

Registering with a CO-type organization would imply that the government had the right to draft me if I was not a CO. This is not the case, so I'm not going to give credence to that claim.

	23-02-2003 11:01									#110
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Well, I'm not going to sit and argue this point.
You keep the course you've set, and find out what rights the government has in life. To be specific, in your life.

	23-02-2003 11:05									#111
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I might find out what POWER the government has, but I already know what RIGHTS it has.

	23-02-2003 11:08									#112
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As in, "might makes right". Yepper. Heard that. True.

	23-02-2003 11:34									#113
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You agree with the phrase "might makes right"?

Then what was wrong with what Hitler did to the Jews, or what Stalin did to the Ukrainians, for example?

	23-02-2003 11:44									#114
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Come on. Degenerating to Hitler references. Kiss of death.
Your plan is fine.

	23-02-2003 12:43									#115
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Well, my "degenerating" is an obvious example of the fact that right does not make right. Unless, of course, you are saying it does - you have to take the whole package.

	23-02-2003 13:55									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I said you are standing where the camera is, which means he's getting ready to shoot the woman and child in the picture as you watch. You're about 25 feet away, he's getting ready to pull the trigger. You have 2-3 seconds to act. I gave you a specific situation, so I want a specific answer.

Well Bory old buddy, I don't think I can get anymore specific. At least, it wouldn't serve a purpose. I could say that I lunged forward several feet, then several feet more, etc.
Maybe such a plan would work, maybe his bullet would be a dud (remember we peaceful types have the advantage of being the good guys), then again maybe not. Perhaps even on this particular occasion I would lose. It's for the most part, irrelevent.

quote: It's nice to be idealistic, but your ideals are not practical. Situations where violence in self-defense is the only option are real, and it's an insult to the many people who have unwillingly had to defend themselves in such a way to suggest they just didn't try hard enough to be peaceful. Violent situations happen quickly, and there will be situations where there is no time or alternative to do anything else. Police officers encounter them all the time, and if they second-guessed the use of force when it was necessary, a lot of innocent people would end up dead.

As far as my ideals not being practical, you are right, to a degree. Evil is always easier than good. I could have chosen to go down the easy path, be a capitalist, make lots of money, live in luxory, and so forth, and I must admit, that it is always a temptation. So, my ideals aren't practical insofar as they are the more difficult path to choose, which is undoubtedly unattractive to most.
In regards to violent situations, if you were faced with a situation in which you were threatened with clearly lethal force and you responded with the absolute minimum ammount of force necessary to disarm the situation, then I don't think anyone would be anything but happy with you, even God. However, it's still not perfection. Speaking in terms of nothing but the absolute highest possible standards for humanity, the greatest thing one could do is attempt to elude death peacefully.

quote: Total pacifism only would work in a world without evil, and that is not a world we live in or will live in anytime soon. Fantasy is nice, but in the real world, people will have to use force to defend themselves or others who are innocent against those who seem to harm them.

Boris, my dear friend. You're a soul whom God is infinitely pleased with. You stand for social justice, peace, tolerence, and you genuinely care about helping out others. In fact, I can personally vouch for your overabundance of generosity. There is more to reality than this life we currently live here on Earth. Therefore, the reality of the cold hard logic you speak of is only part of a much greater picture. Speaking purely in terms of terms of this greater scheme of things, total pacifism is not the fantastic pipe dream of fools that it may seem to be from your perspective, but conversely it is the only thing that is logical.

What may seem to be the ultimate purpose of man from such a limited perspective may be wealth, success, power and so forth. There is no room for the absolute altruism that I have discussed. But ultimately, acheiving such perfection is our only purpose, becoming one with divinity is the one true goal. So in this light, total pacifism can be seen as the only truly logical path to pursue, as it is the only one that can finally propel us toward out ultimate goal, that is, the only goal that really matters.

As far as the existence of evil precluding total pacifism. this isn't so. Jesus was able to acheive such a state, and certainly there was still evil in the world at that time. If one desires to reduce the evil in the world, he needs only to start witih himself. The example that one individual can make can literally change the world. So yes, there is evil in the world, but let's help eliminate it as much as we can.

	23-02-2003 21:22									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Morality and ethics are different things. I could dig up a website if you insist.

To some people they are, to others they aren't. I'll give it a rest now.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel I never said that all wars are just. I wanted to counter Floyd's point that dodging the draft is always the most moral thing to do in a situation when you're drafted, even the war is justified, and moral.

Well okay, carry on without me then

	24-02-2003 04:59									#118
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My vote is obvious (those who refuse, naturally).

Agreed. (Though I did consider Bananas. )

	24-02-2003 06:07									#119
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First off, David posted the poll options unfairly, as a couple of others have already pointed out.

There are just wars and there are unjust wars. But since David only sees in black and white, he can't make any distinction with the shades of gray that he completely ignores.

In my opinion, just wars, along with the heroes who chose to fight, would include:

American Revolution (American soldiers and officers, who fought to preserve a freer government than what existed in Great Britain -- even if it began as a club for propertied white males, the Constitution would allow for past wrongs to be dealt with)

War of 1812 (American soldiers and officers, who fought to put an end to British impressment of American sailors into the Royal Navy, and demand for freedom to trade)

Civil War (Union soldiers and officers who gave their lives for preservation of a country that the Confederacy tried to destroy)

World War I (Allied soldiers and officers were the heroes here)

World War II (Allied soldiers and officers are the heroes here -- duh)



Unjust wars, where the United States was the anti-hero:

Mexican War

Spanish-American War (only way this war could have been just, is if Cuba and other new possessions were liberated by United States after the war)

Phillipino War

Vietnam War

These four wars were fought to conquer in the spirit of imperialism in the race against the other colonial powers such as Great Britain, France, Germany.

	24-02-2003 06:13									#120
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I wasn't around during what I assume you to mean the "Mexican" war, but you realize that South Vietnam wanted us there, right?
You realize communists took over when we left?
You know about the evacuation? About boat people ?