22-02-2003 05:28									#1
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So, who are the real heroes? Those who fight wars, or those who refuse to fight?

	22-02-2003 05:29									#2
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My vote is obvious (those who refuse, naturally).

	22-02-2003 05:33									#3
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One cannot decide who's a hero, by that division. There are heroes, and scumbags, on both sides.

	22-02-2003 05:34									#4
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It also depends on the nature and causes of the war.

	22-02-2003 05:35									#5
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I would think that any motivation for refusing to fight (whether morality, cowardice, or other) is better than choosing to fight.

	22-02-2003 05:36									#6
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quote: It also depends on the nature and causes of the war.

If someone's trying to make you fight, I don't think that the nature of the war is relevant.

	22-02-2003 05:39									#7
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quote: I would think that any motivation for refusing to fight (whether morality, cowardice, or other) is better than choosing to fight.

That's because your ethics are based on incomprehensible, and incorrect arguments.

	22-02-2003 05:40									#8
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You haven't proved them wrong or presented good counterarguments yet.

	22-02-2003 05:43									#9
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This is an ill-posed question, but I chose the first option in order to be contrary.

	22-02-2003 05:43									#10
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quote: You haven't proved them wrong or presented good counterarguments yet.

Well, basically, your ethics are based on these "rights", which are sucked from vaccum.

It's like in that communist/capitalist thread, when you said that you don't care about all those people dying in africa.

	22-02-2003 05:44									#11
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I would think that any motivation for refusing to fight (whether morality, cowardice, or other) is better than choosing to fight.

So if the ****ing Nazi's are about to grease your entire family, being a self-serving yellow bastard is better than resisting forcefully?

BTW, didn't you used to advocate assassinating government officials for things like taxation and other acts affecting "property rights."

And it wasn't too long ago that you suggested people should resist the police any time they thought they had a good reason to.

	22-02-2003 05:50									#12
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Seriously, though, I never have seen the basis of libertarian ethics. Something clearcut, simple, etc.

	22-02-2003 05:56									#13
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If by "refuse to fight" you mean resist a draft, then that gets my vote. If you just broadly mean people who fight and people who don't, then neither.

	22-02-2003 05:59									#14
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Gandhi was a hero, and he chose not to fight.

Mordecai Anielewicz was a hero, and he chose to fight.

So stop the generalizations.

	22-02-2003 06:03									#15
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Depends on whether doing so is just or unjust.

	22-02-2003 06:03									#16
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Ah, life must be so simple for Libertarians... I'm jealous...

	22-02-2003 06:05									#17
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I don't think that people that are drafted cannot be heroes, Osweld.

	22-02-2003 06:05									#18
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quote: So if the ****ing Nazi's are about to grease your entire family, being a self-serving yellow bastard is better than resisting forcefully?

I believe you misunderstood. Self defense, or voluntarily defending another using your own resources, is acceptable, and not intended to be included in the scope of the thread. I suppose I was too vague. What is unacceptable is fighting someone else NOT in self defense or defense of another, or forcing someone else to pay for it.

quote: BTW, didn't you used to advocate assassinating government officials for things like taxation and other acts affecting "property rights."

See above. Self defense is different.

quote: And it wasn't too long ago that you suggested people should resist the police any time they thought they had a good reason to.

See above. Self defense is different.

	22-02-2003 06:06									#19
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Hueij,

quote: Ah, life must be so simple for Libertarians... I'm jealous...

Yes, having an absolute moral compass is quite nice.

Azazel,

quote: I don't think that people that are drafted cannot be heroes, Osweld.

Perhaps, but they would necessarily be more heroic for refusing the draft.

	22-02-2003 06:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I don't think that people that are drafted cannot be heroes, Osweld.

I almost said that aswell, but I don't think hero is the right term. Tragedy seems more apropriate to me.

	22-02-2003 06:20									#21
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quote: I almost said that aswell, but I don't think hero is the right term. Tragedy seems more apropriate to me.

how so? Not each soldier is a hero. A hero is a soldier that went over his duties, and made a more ethically positive act.

quote: Perhaps, but they would necessarily be more heroic for refusing the draft.

A hero is one that makes a courageous and a ethically positive act, and since if one would refuse the draft he would be denied the possibility to make an act that is more ethically positive than dodging the draft, the thing above is not necessary. Unless you think that resisting the draft is the most moral thing possible.

	22-02-2003 06:22									#22
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quote: Unless you think that resisting the draft is the most moral thing possible.

Not at all, but resisting the draft IS the most moral choice available when it comes down to accepting a draft call or not.

	22-02-2003 06:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yes, having an absolute moral compass is quite nice.

Absolute, but completely detaches from reality.

	22-02-2003 06:32									#24
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quote: Hueij, quote: Ah, life must be so simple for Libertarians... I'm jealous... Yes, having an absolute moral compass is quite nice.

That's what I mean... UR is right, if life only was that simple...

	22-02-2003 06:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel how so? Not each soldier is a hero. A hero is a soldier that went over his duties, and made a more ethically positive act.

I don't see how being a forced pawn in someone's war can automatically qualify you for that.

Or did you mean that they can be heros despite being drafted? I read your post as saying that everyone who is drafted is a hero.

	22-02-2003 06:39									#26
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quote: Or did you mean that they can be heros despite being drafted? I read your post as saying that everyone who is drafted is a hero.

That's what I meant.

quote: Absolute, but completely detaches from reality.

Ethics are about what things should be not what things are. There is nothing detached from reality in ethics. don't confuse morality with ethics.

quote: Not at all, but resisting the draft IS the most moral choice available when it comes down to accepting a draft call or not

There is nothing that is ethically big in a decision to accept or refuse the draft.

You could say that drafting someone is grossly unethical, but that's a different story.

	22-02-2003 06:42									#27
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Those who refuse to fight are naturally the greater heros. This world likes to glorify the people who help win wars, and hold them up as some sort of demi-gods But those who refuse to fight risk social alienation and ridicule in the name of breaking the vicious cycle of violence that has plauged this world for so long. Their contributions will inevitably be far more valuable.

	22-02-2003 06:47									#28
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quote: Those who refuse to fight are naturally the greater heros. This world likes to glorify the people who help win wars, and hold them up as some sort of demi-gods But those who refuse to fight risk social alienation and ridicule in the name of breaking the vicious cycle of violence that has plauged this world for so long. Their contributions will inevitably be far more valuable.

You're generalizing with no basis. Look, it's cute that you support the anti-waronIraq movement, but we're talking generally, here.

	22-02-2003 06:48									#29
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Ghandi was a hero, because he made sacrifices. If you fight for someone else you are automatically a hero. If you choose to let someone else fight for you and you don't make any other sacrifices you aren't a hero even if you don't believe in the war. Heros make sacrifices for the group.

	22-02-2003 06:50									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel That's what I meant.

Well, I can't argue with that, then. Although I would never consider someone a hero for military victories and such.